Hello,
We're beginning farmers in northeast OK and were getting by with a Ford Ranger and a couple of 12 ft trailers. The Ranger died. Also on the horizon is a lot of traveling while our kids are learning American History. I came across a Quigley 4X4, and it gave me the idea that we could "do it all" with one van:
Pull the 12' trailers, give tours of our farm, haul the scouts, camp with the kids as we tour the country. I have a couple of questions:

1) Are we crazy to try to do it all with one van?
2) After reading some posts on the Quigley 4x4, I'm not sure the 4X4 is needed, and would like to understand the impact on mileage the 4X4 package has in real life -- found one post on that, but any new insight is welcome.
3) Advice on which van to get.

Many thanks for any help!

 

I don't see why not. Is there a specific price range you are looking into. I would probably suggest and E250 or 350. More room and better towing capacity. They have the v10 vans and also diesel ones. I have an '88 E250 with the 7.3 IDI diesel and love it. I got it for the extra room (5 of us), especially when traveling. I also use it to trailer my car to the track and then camp out in on site. No tent needed and I have a bed in the back. This coming spring I will be using it to pull a travel trailer as well. If you are going to be towing allot with it I would strongly recommend a heavy duty transmission cooler and a good set of gauges to keep an eye on it.
4 wheel drive will hurt you MPG. If you don't need it I would say leave it off. Probably a Limited Slip would help. Also look at the rear end gearing when picking one. Some are geared for MPG and some are geared for towing.

 

Many thanks for your reply. I'm a real beginner when it comes to trucks and vans & am in the middle of another big project with a deadline looming, and since our Ranger died, we need a vehicle sooner rather than later. My husband knows more, but he's also swamped at work, and I'd just like to understand these things better. Could someone point me to a good place (website, book, etc) to learn the basics of vans and trucks -- pros and cons of gasoline vs diesel, heavy duty transmission vs regular, Limited Slip, rear end gearing, etc!)

Regarding price, if humanly possible, I'd like to stay under $10,000, be able to tour the country in two years time & then be able to get some good use out of it after then -- at least 3 more years? Does that sound reasonable?

Many thanks!

 

I have had full size vans since 1986, and bought my '02 E150 new. The E150 and my previous '96 GMC Savana got my son thru Cub and Boy Scouts, campouts with the vans filled with camping gear and boys. We are also bicyclists and my son raced for 12 years using our vans as support vehicles. No trailer pulling on my part.

I had an Eaton posi installed on my E150 when it was new, and had an Auburn limited slip on my old '86 GMC van, and did some mild 2-track off roading with that one. I have also made it thru lots of Michigan snow with the vans, which have been my winter vehicles. I would say that the special parts involved in the Quigley conversion, along with the cost going in, would not justify the 4WD for me. Also, the high center of gravity on the 4x4 will be a bad thing if you have a van full of kids and have to do some emergency maneuvers, dive off the road, etc.

Sounds like you want a long term keeper, and for that reason as well, would suggest getting a newer van. However, if it's gonna be a long term keeper, prepare for $5 and $6 per gallon gas.

My E150 is a 4.6 and gets 17-18 mpg on the road lightly loaded. For any trailer pulling, I would definitely suggest the 5.4.

Depending on how heavy your trailers are, an E150 might do the trick, but a 250/350 would be tougher, have a bit more ground clearance, ride harder, and use more fuel. The safest van for a load of kids would be a recent 350 Club Wagon with the stability control, etc. (I believe Club Wagons have come only in E150 and E350 series.)

My E150 will presumably pull a 5k lb trailer; stock 3.55 axle. It would suck eggs doing so unless I put a 4.10 axle or something in it. (You could change out axle gearing and put in a posi at the same time--I did this on my old '86 GMC 2500 which had a hilarious 2.73 axle with a 305 and Turbo 350...went to a 3.42.) Like I said, the 5.4 is probably your best compromise for gas mileage with some pulling power.

Tell us about your trailer weight, etc.

And yes, I think vans are great "do it all" vehicles.

George

 

You could definitely get a van you could use for under that. I paid $3500 for my diesel van. It was in excellent shape for its age. After about another $700 in maintenance it runs and drives perfectly.

One of the biggest questions to ask is "How hard are you going to work it and how much weight will you be pulling?". This will help you decide on a 1/2,3/4 or 1 ton (E150,250 or 350). If you are going to be working it hard/towing frequently I would go with an E250 or bigger. They, in general, have stouter suspension and drivetrain.

As far as gas vs diesel. Gas vans/vehicles don't usually cost as much as their diesel counterpart, but usually don't run for as many miles. They also, on average, don't get as good of MPG. This is especially true when they are heavily loaded of towing. The downside to diesel is the initial purchase price, maintenance is a little but more (but not too much( and the price of diesel is now more than gas.

Limited slip just helps with traction in low traction situations by still delivering power to the wheel that has traction if one is on ice/mud etc.

Rear end gearing. The higher the number the better for towing/heavy loads, but the worse for fuel economy. 4.10's work well for towing/hauling and usually can do decent in fuel economy when paired with an Over Drive transmission.

 

One comment on Jay's statement that gas vans don't run as long as diesels. The guy at the millionmilevan.com website got 1,299,000 miles on a 1997 E250 with a 5.4 gas engine before the engine finally failed. Likewise, police cars (sold to taxi companies after retirement) and stretch limos frequently pull 400-500k miles out of 4.6 gas V8's (which are related to the 5.4 in design). I had a friend with a limo company and spent some time at a social occasion talking to one of his mechanics; he confirmed this. (Go on Ebay and look at some Town Car limo listings--you will see some big miles.)

I don't know how much further diesels will go, but I can't believe that a lot of them will outlast a well-maintained Ford gas engine. In Michigan, I think that most vans succumb to serious body rust before the engines give out.

I am also guessing that the OP would want a Club Wagon for people-carrying instead of a cargo van, and diesel Club Wagons are somewhat harder to find. I am guessing that the 5.4 is the most common engine in E350 Club Wagons, with E150 Club Wagons being a mix of 4.6 and 5.4 gas engines; for towing and heavy loads I would lean toward the 5.4. (And note that the diesel was never available in the E150.)

George

 

You are correct that today's gas engines can run for a very long time and they are getting better everyday. I was talking in generalities. It is not uncommon for the engine in my diesel van to run 500K miles with just routine maintenance. Diesels also tend to last a little better when they are being worked hard.....but then I admit that I am a little bias towards my diesel van.

You would want to research any engine you are thinking about getting, gas or diesel, since they all have weak points.

Maintenance is the key to making any vehicle reliable. If it is addressed correctly then you should be fine.

 

Thanks again to both of you for all the helpful information. Regarding what we'll be towing, we have two lightweight trailers that we towed with our Ford Ranger with no problem. We had started discussing moving up to a 1/2 ton pick up so that we can pull a stock trailer. We haven't bought it yet, so I contacted Featherlite and determined that the tongue weight for 2 cows in one of their 12 foot trailers would be about 800 lbs. Also, our local trailer dealer said a 1/2 ton pickup would be able to pull one of their 12 foot stock trailers. So, since the E-150 is a 1/2 ton (I wasn't certain about that, so thanks for that note), I think it would be alright.(?).

And regarding how hard are we going to work it -- towing -- I don't think it would be considered that hard. We'll haul livestock over the highway maybe once or twice a year. We may haul them on short jaunts on the road around our farm to keep them used to the trailer & loading process 2 or 3 additional times per year. We'll haul a 5' by 12' flat trailer with light loads maybe 12 times a year. We'll haul an enclosed meat trailer (tongue weight of 300 lbs) maybe 6 times a year.

I'm thinking our bigger issue may be gas mileage on the road trips.

Although having said that the E150 could probably do the towing & fuel efficiency is quite important, I think we want at least a 12-person & could make good use of a 15 person size van. Not sure the E150 goes that big--I'll look that up!

I'm going to re-read your posts & try to digest all the info while I sleep.
Thanks again!!

 

Oh, one more question on maintenance and longevity. In 2001, we bought a Volvo station wagon & faithfully did the maintenance (I had been recalled to active duty & rationalized using that salary because we had our first baby & commuted on a bad section of interstate). Any way, right at about 150,000 miles, serious stuff started happening. We did a couple of expensive repairs, but the third one hit (and it was a repeat offender) right after we literally bought the farm & we couldn't afford to keep sinking money into it, not knowing if it was the last expensive repair or not. I was so disappointed because when we bought it, I envisioned us being one of the 350,000 mile owners, at least. So, my question regarding the high miles on the Econoline vans is: are folks doing major work-overs to achieve those high miles, or are they just doing the usual stuff in the owner's manual maintenance checklist?
Thanks!

 

You won't find a 1/2 ton van with seating for 12, so you are going to have to eliminate those from your list. It sounds to me like an E350 with the 5.4 liter V-8 and factory tow package would be what you need. The one below is over your budget, but it has very low miles.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-FORD-E-350-XL-5-4L-V8-12-PASSENGER-CRUISE-CTRL-68K-TEXAS-DIRECT-AUTO-/190896438951?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c72507ea7

 

Agreed--if you are thinking about 12 passengers, go with the E350. The payload of an E150 will be maybe 1600 lbs at most, which includes all passengers, cargo, and tongue weight and that will not do it for you. You want more of a safety margin.

I forget what year Ford started putting "Advance Trac" stability control on the E350 Club Wagon, but I would strongly recommend that, because you will have a lot of precious cargo (aka people) on board.

As for maintenance, some cars like Volvos and Audis (and high end BMW's) can rack up significant maintenance and repair costs in their old age. Simpler BMW's (like 90's 3 series cars) can easily go 200-300k miles with no big expenses--my son has had two mid 90's 318ti's that he has run up to 200k miles, and I have a '91 318is that is simple and does not break. Ford trucks are made to run for years, day in and day out, and there are many business people that rely on them for their jobs--there is a reason that Ford vans and pickups are the most popular among tradesmen.

Likewise, as long as you maintain the major components--like changing trans fluid and engine oil, Ford vans and trucks really don't rack up that much expense. There will be some parts--like front suspension parts--that wear and may need replacement, but they won't eat you alive or cause the van to die out on the road. My '02 E150 has really been excellent; it eats brakes as all my vans have (but the E350 will have larger brakes that don't work quite as hard), and I have had to replace a couple coils on the engine (not too expensive). It got a round of front ball joints while it was under extended warranty, and I've replaced the shocks at about 95k miles. I only have 114k miles, but my van is 11 years old. Check out the website on the guy with the million mile van...

I don't think an E van will eat you alive with repair costs, but if you can start with one that has lower mileage, so much the better.

Good luck,
George

 

Thanks for the link to the red E350. It looks nice. I called the place & they answered my questions; friendly.

This one is over-budget also, but I'm curious about your thoughts on the E-350 diesel models. In the time that I've had to search, I'm not finding a lot of information about them. What I have found makes it sound like one can run into problems if it doesn't get highway miles frequently.

But they have better fuel efficiency, right?

Find used 2003 Ford E350 15-Passenger Van SUPERDUTY 7.3 POWER STROKE TURBO DIESEL LIKE NEW in West Palm Beach, Florida, United States, for US $12,900.00

 

I have no experience with diesels. My E150 with 4.6 will legitimately do 17-18 mpg on the freeway, and I could probably approach 20 mpg if I drove 60 mph; I normally cruise at 70-80.

I am guessing that a 5.4 in an E350, loaded with people, would still give you 15-16 mpg if you were willing to keep the speed down. Michelin LTX tires are what came on my van and the 250/350 vans also had Michelins as OEM; I believe they are good for 1-2 mpg over some typical low end house brand tires.

As for diesel mpg and problems, I have no experience. There is a lot of background info on the different diesels in the engine forums, so I would spend some time there. I believe that the van 7.3, or one of the diesels, put out significantly less power than the one in the pickups due to a lack on intercooler but otherwise I think the engines are similar. There is also a "specifications" link on this website so you can see which years used which engines, etc. I know diesels are a great choice if you are pulling 10k lbs of trailer on a regular basis.

A single serious engine problem can cost the equivalent of 5-10 mpg worth of gas mileage over an ownership period of five years, and a few grand in purchase price can cost the same as that. My perception is that the gas engines are simpler, more common, and cheaper to work on if needed. Every mechanic in the US has worked on 4.6's and 5.4's.

I would go for the newest, cleanest, lowest mileage 5.4 E350 Club Wagon you can find within your budget, and make sure it's within the years that advance trac was available. Our local Detroit dealer typically sells one year old 5.4 E350's for $20 grand, with 10-20k miles on them. They are near new. A van like that with a warranty would be darn near as good as brand new, and you're saving over a third of the sticker price. I know that's way over your budget, but looking at deals like these makes me want to "create a need" for one...just because they are such a good deal. They are cheaper than a one year old Honda Odyssey minivan, for goodness sake.

Good luck,
George

 

I used to think that a diesel engine in a truck/van was a much better option than the gas engines, but since I've started working at an auto parts store and had the chance to actually talk with diesel owners I've realized that a truck or van equipped with a diesel engine is really designed for people who need a heavy duty vehicle. The average person that doesn't use a van or truck for work or a lot of towing doesn't need a diesel engine. Don't get me wrong. They're still cool to have and all, but maintenance costs on a diesel are pretty high. The vehicle almost has to be making you money in order to be worth the money it will cost you in maintenance, when compared with a gasoline engine. If you were looking for a van to pull a 30 foot travel trailer all over the country, then yes, a diesel would make perfect sense. But to get one for hauling a few kids around every now and then, and a small trailer a few times a year, just doesn't make much sense. But that's just my opinion. Others may disagree.