'64 Steering linkage set up
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
From: Northern Illinois
'64 Steering linkage set up
Guys,
I was under my newly purchased F100, and knowing it had been converted over to power steering, and seems to be a GM Steering box......I am in the process of replacing it due to A LOT of end play and input to output shaft play. SO, in the process, I replaced all tie rod ends, checked king pins (good shape, no play)! So before I go purchasing a new Steering gear box, (which also has been a fun search) I was looking at the way the linkage and or drag links are set up on my steering. I am no way a front end expert, however I have been around a lot of automobiles and this set up seems, well a bit different then most I have seen. <O
></O>
The pics (in my album) are taken from behind the passenger wheel. When the steering is under pressure, left to right, the drag links literally pivot within the tie rod ends and seems to me putting a lot of force on them.(?) <O></O>
I would like to know what others think about the set up. Is this acceptable? Anyone see it this way before. If I need to post the pics here, I will try. <O></O>
Once again thank you all!<O></O>
Hammy
I was under my newly purchased F100, and knowing it had been converted over to power steering, and seems to be a GM Steering box......I am in the process of replacing it due to A LOT of end play and input to output shaft play. SO, in the process, I replaced all tie rod ends, checked king pins (good shape, no play)! So before I go purchasing a new Steering gear box, (which also has been a fun search) I was looking at the way the linkage and or drag links are set up on my steering. I am no way a front end expert, however I have been around a lot of automobiles and this set up seems, well a bit different then most I have seen. <O
></O>The pics (in my album) are taken from behind the passenger wheel. When the steering is under pressure, left to right, the drag links literally pivot within the tie rod ends and seems to me putting a lot of force on them.(?) <O
></O>I would like to know what others think about the set up. Is this acceptable? Anyone see it this way before. If I need to post the pics here, I will try. <O
></O>Once again thank you all!<O
></O>Hammy
Elder User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
From: chicago burbs
do you mean it's un screwing the threads? it looks fine to me. in fact i am planning on doing something very similar to my 64. hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in. what is northern illinois? Is Joliet or Downers Grove close?
looks like a nice truck, flipping through the pics you put truck front end, charged modular motor, full truck shot. i got all kinds of excited. took a moment to see the spring perches.
looks like a nice truck, flipping through the pics you put truck front end, charged modular motor, full truck shot. i got all kinds of excited. took a moment to see the spring perches.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
From: Northern Illinois
Hey 21411,
Thank for the comment. No, the threads are not coming loose. As you turn the steering and watch the linkage, it will pivot until the tie rod ball ends say, that’s it, and then does the turning. Linkage pivots upward and downward for a short time. May have to get a short video of it. <O></O>
Thanks, yes 460, C6, 9 inch rear end...Power steering, (loose as a goose, working on it) brakes, front disc. All metal body, no rust no fillers
. Just north of Rockford. <O></O>
Thank for the comment. No, the threads are not coming loose. As you turn the steering and watch the linkage, it will pivot until the tie rod ball ends say, that’s it, and then does the turning. Linkage pivots upward and downward for a short time. May have to get a short video of it. <O
></O>Thanks, yes 460, C6, 9 inch rear end...Power steering, (loose as a goose, working on it) brakes, front disc. All metal body, no rust no fillers
. Just north of Rockford. <O></O>
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
From: Northern Illinois
Hey You all...
I have seen that many times this post has been viewed, however I am not getting any other input as to this steering set up. I ordered my steering box today, and was realy wanting to know what others or even a expert would say about this sterring set up? Maybe someone can suggest a person that I could contact on this?
I have seen that many times this post has been viewed, however I am not getting any other input as to this steering set up. I ordered my steering box today, and was realy wanting to know what others or even a expert would say about this sterring set up? Maybe someone can suggest a person that I could contact on this?
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,144
Likes: 0
From: Sedro-Woolley, WA
Just found this.
Your setup is a common rear(behind the axle) cross steer(the drag link attaches to the opposite side of the truck from the from the steering box) setup. It is a good configuration.
The reason for the tie rod roll is that the drag link attaches to it. The off angle of the forces the attachment point down when turning right and up when turning left. Some cross steer setups prevent this by having a separate attachment point for the drag link on the steering knuckle leaving the tie rod as a stand alone piece.
How you can remedy this in your case is to rotate the tie rod so that the drag link has a more direct straight push on it instead of the almost glancing force that it now has.
In other words, turn the drag link to tie rod attachment point up. It might take a few attempts to get it right but it will improve steering reliability and decrease wear on the ends.
Also, looking at your steering geometry, I really don't see much need for a steering dampener. You have a nice clean setup with no odd angles to compensate for. Removing it might reduce some of the stresses on your steering.
Your setup is a common rear(behind the axle) cross steer(the drag link attaches to the opposite side of the truck from the from the steering box) setup. It is a good configuration.
The reason for the tie rod roll is that the drag link attaches to it. The off angle of the forces the attachment point down when turning right and up when turning left. Some cross steer setups prevent this by having a separate attachment point for the drag link on the steering knuckle leaving the tie rod as a stand alone piece.
How you can remedy this in your case is to rotate the tie rod so that the drag link has a more direct straight push on it instead of the almost glancing force that it now has.
In other words, turn the drag link to tie rod attachment point up. It might take a few attempts to get it right but it will improve steering reliability and decrease wear on the ends.
Also, looking at your steering geometry, I really don't see much need for a steering dampener. You have a nice clean setup with no odd angles to compensate for. Removing it might reduce some of the stresses on your steering.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
From: Northern Illinois
Rogue40,
Thanks so much for adding your comments. Makes me feel better that it isnt going to snap off and it is of a confiquation that is known in this industy.
So, if I understand you right, I need to find a drag link tie rod that will allow for me to hook up the drag link / tie rod from the steering box to hook up on the top side and not moving the tie rod on the wheel from the bottom to the top? (better pic of the tie rod type. sorry the pic is sideways)
Again, cant thank you enough!
Hammy
Thanks so much for adding your comments. Makes me feel better that it isnt going to snap off and it is of a confiquation that is known in this industy.
So, if I understand you right, I need to find a drag link tie rod that will allow for me to hook up the drag link / tie rod from the steering box to hook up on the top side and not moving the tie rod on the wheel from the bottom to the top? (better pic of the tie rod type. sorry the pic is sideways)
Again, cant thank you enough!
Hammy
Last edited by HAMS64; Aug 13, 2013 at 01:51 PM. Reason: wrong photo
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,144
Likes: 0
From: Sedro-Woolley, WA
Your tie rod and drag link are obviously custom made and not a bad design.
The only problem I see to a solution is the passenger side end. Like this, you can't roll this end of the drag link up to get a straighter line to the push and pull forces.
Do you know who built them?
If this were mine, I would have the drag link shortened and a tapered bushing installed in the tube of the tie rod. This will allow you to "clock" the attachment point.
One other possible fix could be a taller drop pitman arm but it looks like you already have a 4" drop. I wouldn't recommend any more.
Perhaps a longer tailed steering box?
The only problem I see to a solution is the passenger side end. Like this, you can't roll this end of the drag link up to get a straighter line to the push and pull forces.
Do you know who built them?
If this were mine, I would have the drag link shortened and a tapered bushing installed in the tube of the tie rod. This will allow you to "clock" the attachment point.
One other possible fix could be a taller drop pitman arm but it looks like you already have a 4" drop. I wouldn't recommend any more.
Perhaps a longer tailed steering box?
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
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From: Northern Illinois
Rogue40,
Yea I purchased the truck from a guy that had it for a couple years, and I want to say all he did was drive it periodically. He had two '64 F100 and a few other toys. When I purchased, I asked and he had really NO info on the truck so I have been digging for info. From the motor to the trans to this steering. I want to say all this equipment had about 50,000. miles on it. The previous owner said the guy he purchased it from did all the work and put a new mileage counter in it and now says 51,000 miles. <O></O>
<O></O>
FTE has been SO Helpful! You guys rock on info! <O></O>
<O></O>
Closest I could get to the maker was maybe Speedway auto parts for I want to say that is where the power brake kit came from. I think I understand what you are saying about the tapered bushing so that I can clock it. I like that idea and can picture this working better. <O></O>
Wish I could just take it to a frontend shop, but not too many mechanics understand these ol' trucks.<O></O>
I just ordered a new steering box and it came in today so I will see what else may be available before I mount it. <O></O>
All this came up due to the fact that I changed all the rod ends and thought I put them back the way they were as to length; however I want to say I will have to play with the toe in / out to try to get it to drive straighter. Thus the new steering box for it had about an inch or more of play both ways and the adjustment was all used up! The tie rod ends we pretty much shot too. And the movements of the steering drag links had me wondering. SO Again, thanks so much for your expertize Rogue40! I will follow up on my conclusion. <O></O>
Yea I purchased the truck from a guy that had it for a couple years, and I want to say all he did was drive it periodically. He had two '64 F100 and a few other toys. When I purchased, I asked and he had really NO info on the truck so I have been digging for info. From the motor to the trans to this steering. I want to say all this equipment had about 50,000. miles on it. The previous owner said the guy he purchased it from did all the work and put a new mileage counter in it and now says 51,000 miles. <O
></O><O
></O>FTE has been SO Helpful! You guys rock on info! <O
></O><O
></O>Closest I could get to the maker was maybe Speedway auto parts for I want to say that is where the power brake kit came from. I think I understand what you are saying about the tapered bushing so that I can clock it. I like that idea and can picture this working better. <O
></O>Wish I could just take it to a frontend shop, but not too many mechanics understand these ol' trucks.<O
></O>I just ordered a new steering box and it came in today so I will see what else may be available before I mount it. <O
></O>All this came up due to the fact that I changed all the rod ends and thought I put them back the way they were as to length; however I want to say I will have to play with the toe in / out to try to get it to drive straighter. Thus the new steering box for it had about an inch or more of play both ways and the adjustment was all used up! The tie rod ends we pretty much shot too. And the movements of the steering drag links had me wondering. SO Again, thanks so much for your expertize Rogue40! I will follow up on my conclusion. <O
></O>
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 176
Likes: 21
From: GR, MI
'64 steering
Hi, I had a Jeep w/Chevy 1/2 ton axles front and rear. I installed a cross steering shaft similar to your truck. I used a Camaro power box and I had to ad a place to the Chevy tie rod to attach the drag link to. Because I had such a lift on the Jeep I welded the point to the top of the tie rod on the passenger side by the tie rod end. It worked OK but I had the same problem that you have. The solution was to find a tie rod end that only pivots one way. If you think about it, I straight axle tie rod does NOT have to pivot on two planes. Ford only used the parts that they did so they didn't have to source a different part. Ford used the tie rod ends on just about everything they built from the 30's through the 90's. If you can find a end that will fit at least one side and install it you will eliminate the tie rod twist. I believe if you look at a Jeep CJ5-7 you will find an end like I am referring to.
Good luck in your project, I would like to see how that steering gear has been installed.
Good luck in your project, I would like to see how that steering gear has been installed.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,144
Likes: 0
From: Sedro-Woolley, WA
Hi, I had a Jeep w/Chevy 1/2 ton axles front and rear. I installed a cross steering shaft similar to your truck. I used a Camaro power box and I had to ad a place to the Chevy tie rod to attach the drag link to. Because I had such a lift on the Jeep I welded the point to the top of the tie rod on the passenger side by the tie rod end. It worked OK but I had the same problem that you have. The solution was to find a tie rod end that only pivots one way. If you think about it, I straight axle tie rod does NOT have to pivot on two planes. Ford only used the parts that they did so they didn't have to source a different part. Ford used the tie rod ends on just about everything they built from the 30's through the 90's. If you can find a end that will fit at least one side and install it you will eliminate the tie rod twist. I believe if you look at a Jeep CJ5-7 you will find an end like I am referring to.
Good luck in your project, I would like to see how that steering gear has been installed.
Good luck in your project, I would like to see how that steering gear has been installed.
Mounting them separately eliminates the twisting force on the tie rod.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
From: Northern Illinois
Hey Guys,
I have noticed a lot of Jeeps set up with somewhat the same set up I have. I have been looking to see what I can do to eliminate this twisting with all the suggestions you guys have given. Thanks!<O></O>
<O> </O>
So Rogue40, I think I know what you may be saying in that, if I had a bracket coming off of the hub that would allow me to connect the tie rod for the drag link between each hub and then connect the steering tie rod to that same bracket, separate hole...Would eliminate the twisting. Hope I got that right..<O></O>
<O> </O>
I was going to mount the steering box last night, started doing some prep work before I install it back up, looked at the clock, and was late..lol..So will attempt to get it installed by weekend. I have been taking pics so will post them so you can see the set up. <O></O>
I have noticed a lot of Jeeps set up with somewhat the same set up I have. I have been looking to see what I can do to eliminate this twisting with all the suggestions you guys have given. Thanks!<O
></O><O
> </O>So Rogue40, I think I know what you may be saying in that, if I had a bracket coming off of the hub that would allow me to connect the tie rod for the drag link between each hub and then connect the steering tie rod to that same bracket, separate hole...Would eliminate the twisting. Hope I got that right..<O
></O><O
> </O>I was going to mount the steering box last night, started doing some prep work before I install it back up, looked at the clock, and was late..lol..So will attempt to get it installed by weekend. I have been taking pics so will post them so you can see the set up. <O
></O>
Mountain Pass
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 176
Likes: 21
From: GR, MI
You are absolutely correct about the Jeep front end set up. What I was refurring to is that with the conversion from the Jeep axle to the Chevy axle there was nowhere to attach the drag link to because the Chevy set up is somewhat similar to the Ford straight axle set up. On the Chevy the drag link is parallel to the left frame rail but the steering gear is in front of the axle instead of behind the axle center line on the early Fords. When I welded the attachment point onto the right side of the Chevy tie rod, I located it to the top of the tie rod, when I turned the steering it rocked the tie rod front to back. All I had to do was find a tie rod end that just pivoted on one plane (Kind of like a end of an idler arm). I installed it on the end of the drag link that attached to the tie rod and it took the rocking motion out of the steering. Problem solved. But like I always say: Take my advise and do what you want. Cheers!
Mountain Pass
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 176
Likes: 21
From: GR, MI
HAMS64 Is that a Panhard bar on the front axle? One other thing, the proper fix for your truck would be to replace the right tie rod spindle arm with one that has two holes one for the tie rod and one for the draglink. Unless you get really lucky, I don't think you are going to find such an animal. If by chance there was an item like that available it would have been included in the conversion kit to begin with. Don't you think? I am sure that there is a simple fix for your problem. Don't try to reinvent the wheel to try to fix your problem.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,144
Likes: 0
From: Sedro-Woolley, WA
Hey Guys,
I have noticed a lot of Jeeps set up with somewhat the same set up I have. I have been looking to see what I can do to eliminate this twisting with all the suggestions you guys have given. Thanks!<o></o>
<o> </o>
So Rogue40, I think I know what you may be saying in that, if I had a bracket coming off of the hub that would allow me to connect the tie rod for the drag link between each hub and then connect the steering tie rod to that same bracket, separate hole...Would eliminate the twisting. Hope I got that right..<o></o>
<o> </o>
I have noticed a lot of Jeeps set up with somewhat the same set up I have. I have been looking to see what I can do to eliminate this twisting with all the suggestions you guys have given. Thanks!<o
></o><o
> </o>So Rogue40, I think I know what you may be saying in that, if I had a bracket coming off of the hub that would allow me to connect the tie rod for the drag link between each hub and then connect the steering tie rod to that same bracket, separate hole...Would eliminate the twisting. Hope I got that right..<o
></o><o
> </o>Because of the design of your tie rod, with the two point end on it, the only way to clock it is to shorten your drag link and attache it to the tie rod closer to the steering box. That would put that attachment point on the part of the tie rod that can be turned.
Koolkat's suggestion to replace the draglink ends with anti-twist ends is probably the better way to go.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
From: Northern Illinois
Hey Guys,<O</O
Koolkat, Yes that is a pan hard bar. Connects on the passenger side on the top of the axel and over to the frame on drivers side. Do you have a pic of what you did with your tie rod connection?
<O</O
<O</O
I had to run out of town this weekend so didn’t get to put much time into the truck. Have the new steering box in place, hoses run, pitman arm on and tie rod link. Will get fluid today to feed the steering and get it bleeding it out, test it first and see what i have. <O</O
I do have a friend that can possibly machine me a bracket. And that seems to be the way to go...<O</O
Again thanks guys for your input!<O</O
Hammy<O</O
</OKoolkat, Yes that is a pan hard bar. Connects on the passenger side on the top of the axel and over to the frame on drivers side. Do you have a pic of what you did with your tie rod connection?
<O
</O<O
</OI had to run out of town this weekend so didn’t get to put much time into the truck. Have the new steering box in place, hoses run, pitman arm on and tie rod link. Will get fluid today to feed the steering and get it bleeding it out, test it first and see what i have. <O
</OI do have a friend that can possibly machine me a bracket. And that seems to be the way to go...<O
</OAgain thanks guys for your input!<O
</OHammy<O
</O