Injector O-Ring Help
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
Injector O-Ring Help
Replaced my O-Rings and ended up w/ a good cold start but no warm engine restart. Have to let the oil, I guess, cool down before she restarts.
Called two places and got to different reason: I rolled the o-rings down like a rubber. ( I made sure the Pink one with different inside and outside profiles were right) and the other mechanic said I had a pressure problem and probably chipped/damaged an o-ring re-installing them.
Although I did have a problem with one cylinder, I think 7, that wouldnt seat and took it back out to redo after trying to seat it for about 20 seconds or so. I wouldnt think that It had chipped or so but maybe.
This time i'm I'm going to heat up the o-rings in some oil and slide them on without twisting them down the injector and then allow them to cool for about an hour before reinserting.
Whats the deal guys? BTW my oil is pristine and full and I had a shudder between 12-18 rpm originally which just about cleared up after the orignal 0-ring swap. milage is at 180K. Thanks for the help.
One more thing, I relace the gp's and my solenoids all measure 2.9 and I undersrtan that since the entire bank of injectors share the same oil rail, if 45-500psi isnt reached, she wont pop. So I tend to think that there is a pressure problem. The driver side is out and inspection of o-rings look fine. I wont be able to do the right bank til tomorrow.
Called two places and got to different reason: I rolled the o-rings down like a rubber. ( I made sure the Pink one with different inside and outside profiles were right) and the other mechanic said I had a pressure problem and probably chipped/damaged an o-ring re-installing them.
Although I did have a problem with one cylinder, I think 7, that wouldnt seat and took it back out to redo after trying to seat it for about 20 seconds or so. I wouldnt think that It had chipped or so but maybe.
This time i'm I'm going to heat up the o-rings in some oil and slide them on without twisting them down the injector and then allow them to cool for about an hour before reinserting.
Whats the deal guys? BTW my oil is pristine and full and I had a shudder between 12-18 rpm originally which just about cleared up after the orignal 0-ring swap. milage is at 180K. Thanks for the help.
One more thing, I relace the gp's and my solenoids all measure 2.9 and I undersrtan that since the entire bank of injectors share the same oil rail, if 45-500psi isnt reached, she wont pop. So I tend to think that there is a pressure problem. The driver side is out and inspection of o-rings look fine. I wont be able to do the right bank til tomorrow.
Last edited by Usaman; Sep 24, 2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: more information
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
I think I'll feel better replacing all the o-rings. practice makes perfect...
There's a local guy that I picked up the Alliant o-rings from this second time around when I figured the first swap didnt work out. I originally got them from Guzzles's, so maybe he'll have the IPR ring. It just unscrews and the ring is replaced i believe. I'll do that tomorrow if I can, seems like a 20 minute exercise.
BTW, I'm dumping fiel big time and now this miss is between 15-18. I also replaced the IPC since mine ohmed out bad. There was a question as to which part number was corret. The dealers I called 2) said the F4 was correct and not the F6 I got off the posted part numbers. Any thoghts on that seeing that my OBs is 961/2? Thanks!
There's a local guy that I picked up the Alliant o-rings from this second time around when I figured the first swap didnt work out. I originally got them from Guzzles's, so maybe he'll have the IPR ring. It just unscrews and the ring is replaced i believe. I'll do that tomorrow if I can, seems like a 20 minute exercise.
BTW, I'm dumping fiel big time and now this miss is between 15-18. I also replaced the IPC since mine ohmed out bad. There was a question as to which part number was corret. The dealers I called 2) said the F4 was correct and not the F6 I got off the posted part numbers. Any thoghts on that seeing that my OBs is 961/2? Thanks!
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
Getting frustrated here
Managed to get by the week without having to kill the engine where I couldnt afford to wait a couple of hours. I read that if the IPR is disconnected while engine is running it will kill the engine if its stuck open and the engine did die. So today I pulled the bowl, rebuilt that, replaced the fuel lines anyway with the blue ones and swapped out the IPR. After running her to warm and killing the engine, she wouldnt restart. Takes aboout 2 hours to cool and then she pops over.
Yesterday, I got a hold of my buddies Snap-on and ran some tests. It passed the cylinder contribution but said 2+4 high to low side on the buzzer test. With engine cold and cranking; ipr at 580 and ICP at 1.2v.
Hopped on the highway and got the IPR up to 2560psi and 43%.
Back at home, killed engine and cranked for restart: IPR at 230 and 11% and while cranking ( with tach movement) I noticed the Oil guage snap to middle but with no engine start. I had noticed the oil guage snap to middle once before but only after engine started from being cold. I read somewhere that the snap before start was indicative of a bad IPR valve. It also said that my new ICP was uncontrollable. I assumed that it was failing because the IPR was failing. So do I need a new HPOP?
BTW, I also read that the HPOP and IPR should not be changed at the same time. If I do need a new HPOP it wont be until next week where I'll fave the time again to R&R it. Is a week apart and a couple hundred miles qualify as not being the same time? Silly but just checking bases here. Feels like I'm chasing a ghost. Thanks for the help and looking for some more advice please.
Frank A
Forgot to add, last week I redid the Inj o-rings over again and after inspection they looked great so that wasnt the problem as you suspected but I had to do again just to rule it out. Gotta say though, the o-ring replacement is pretty staight forward the second time around!
Yesterday, I got a hold of my buddies Snap-on and ran some tests. It passed the cylinder contribution but said 2+4 high to low side on the buzzer test. With engine cold and cranking; ipr at 580 and ICP at 1.2v.
Hopped on the highway and got the IPR up to 2560psi and 43%.
Back at home, killed engine and cranked for restart: IPR at 230 and 11% and while cranking ( with tach movement) I noticed the Oil guage snap to middle but with no engine start. I had noticed the oil guage snap to middle once before but only after engine started from being cold. I read somewhere that the snap before start was indicative of a bad IPR valve. It also said that my new ICP was uncontrollable. I assumed that it was failing because the IPR was failing. So do I need a new HPOP?
BTW, I also read that the HPOP and IPR should not be changed at the same time. If I do need a new HPOP it wont be until next week where I'll fave the time again to R&R it. Is a week apart and a couple hundred miles qualify as not being the same time? Silly but just checking bases here. Feels like I'm chasing a ghost. Thanks for the help and looking for some more advice please.
Frank A
Forgot to add, last week I redid the Inj o-rings over again and after inspection they looked great so that wasnt the problem as you suspected but I had to do again just to rule it out. Gotta say though, the o-ring replacement is pretty staight forward the second time around!
Last edited by Usaman; Oct 2, 2012 at 02:35 PM. Reason: more info
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Hi Frank,
I will take these things one at a time. See my responses below in RED.
Have you inspected the ICP? Does it have any oil in the electrical connector? I would try unplugging the ICP when the truck won't start and see if it will start then.
Take a close look at the wiring harness and connectors to the ICP and IPR (especially the IPR) as diesel leaks have a tendency to make the insulation melt off the wires.
Just another quick thought, but as random as they can be you can never completely rule out the CPS. Do you have a spare (Motorcraft or International) CPS that we could try?
Also, we need to know whether the IPR was new or what the deal was there ( I know I mentioned that above, but that is really key).
And again, I am not sure where you're reading all this stuff as I have never heard of some of these things you're saying were suggested.
I will take these things one at a time. See my responses below in RED.
Managed to get by the week without having to kill the engine where I couldnt afford to wait a couple of hours. I read that if the IPR is disconnected while engine is running it will kill the engine if its stuck open and the engine did die. So today I pulled the bowl, rebuilt that, replaced the fuel lines anyway with the blue ones and swapped out the IPR. After running her to warm and killing the engine, she wouldnt restart. Takes aboout 2 hours to cool and then she pops over.
I am not sure where you're reading this but I have never heard of unplugging the IPR while the engine is running. So the IPR you installed is a new one? With new o-rings? If the IPR is stuck the engine generally won't run at all until it gets "unstuck" or replaced.
Yesterday, I got a hold of my buddies Snap-on and ran some tests. It passed the cylinder contribution but said 2+4 high to low side on the buzzer test. With engine cold and cranking; ipr at 580 and ICP at 1.2v.
Hopped on the highway and got the IPR up to 2560psi and 43%.
Back at home, killed engine and cranked for restart: IPR at 230 and 11% and while cranking ( with tach movement) I noticed the Oil guage snap to middle but with no engine start. I had noticed the oil guage snap to middle once before but only after engine started from being cold. I read somewhere that the snap before start was indicative of a bad IPR valve. It also said that my new ICP was uncontrollable. I assumed that it was failing because the IPR was failing. So do I need a new HPOP?
These engines won't start with less than 500PSI of HPO, so that explains your no-start when warm. The question is why is it so low? The oil pressure gauge "snap" doesn't mean anything except that the engine has been cranking long enouigh to build oil pressure sufficient to make the oil pressure switch that sends the "gauge" (more of an idiot light with a needle, really) to the center of the range. When it happens relative to starting the engine is more a function of how long you have had to crank it before it started, and if anything would tend to indicate that the LPOP is working. It doesn't really tell you anything about the function of the HPO system.
BTW, I also read that the HPOP and IPR should not be changed at the same time. If I do need a new HPOP it wont be until next week where I'll fave the time again to R&R it. Is a week apart and a couple hundred miles qualify as not being the same time? Silly but just checking bases here. Feels like I'm chasing a ghost. Thanks for the help and looking for some more advice please.
Again, I have never heard this anywhere. I can't see any reason why not, unless you were troubleshooting an issue and wanted to replace one thing at a time until you found the culprit. Then it makes sense to replace just one piece at a time. Other than that, there is no conceivable reason why you couldn't replace the IPR and the HPOP at the same time if you wanted to. I wouldn't be so sure that you need an HPOP just yet though.
Frank A
Forgot to add, last week I redid the Inj o-rings over again and after inspection they looked great so that wasnt the problem as you suspected but I had to do again just to rule it out. Gotta say though, the o-ring replacement is pretty staight forward the second time around!
I am not sure where you're reading this but I have never heard of unplugging the IPR while the engine is running. So the IPR you installed is a new one? With new o-rings? If the IPR is stuck the engine generally won't run at all until it gets "unstuck" or replaced.
Yesterday, I got a hold of my buddies Snap-on and ran some tests. It passed the cylinder contribution but said 2+4 high to low side on the buzzer test. With engine cold and cranking; ipr at 580 and ICP at 1.2v.
Hopped on the highway and got the IPR up to 2560psi and 43%.
Back at home, killed engine and cranked for restart: IPR at 230 and 11% and while cranking ( with tach movement) I noticed the Oil guage snap to middle but with no engine start. I had noticed the oil guage snap to middle once before but only after engine started from being cold. I read somewhere that the snap before start was indicative of a bad IPR valve. It also said that my new ICP was uncontrollable. I assumed that it was failing because the IPR was failing. So do I need a new HPOP?
These engines won't start with less than 500PSI of HPO, so that explains your no-start when warm. The question is why is it so low? The oil pressure gauge "snap" doesn't mean anything except that the engine has been cranking long enouigh to build oil pressure sufficient to make the oil pressure switch that sends the "gauge" (more of an idiot light with a needle, really) to the center of the range. When it happens relative to starting the engine is more a function of how long you have had to crank it before it started, and if anything would tend to indicate that the LPOP is working. It doesn't really tell you anything about the function of the HPO system.
BTW, I also read that the HPOP and IPR should not be changed at the same time. If I do need a new HPOP it wont be until next week where I'll fave the time again to R&R it. Is a week apart and a couple hundred miles qualify as not being the same time? Silly but just checking bases here. Feels like I'm chasing a ghost. Thanks for the help and looking for some more advice please.
Again, I have never heard this anywhere. I can't see any reason why not, unless you were troubleshooting an issue and wanted to replace one thing at a time until you found the culprit. Then it makes sense to replace just one piece at a time. Other than that, there is no conceivable reason why you couldn't replace the IPR and the HPOP at the same time if you wanted to. I wouldn't be so sure that you need an HPOP just yet though.
Frank A
Forgot to add, last week I redid the Inj o-rings over again and after inspection they looked great so that wasnt the problem as you suspected but I had to do again just to rule it out. Gotta say though, the o-ring replacement is pretty staight forward the second time around!
Take a close look at the wiring harness and connectors to the ICP and IPR (especially the IPR) as diesel leaks have a tendency to make the insulation melt off the wires.
Just another quick thought, but as random as they can be you can never completely rule out the CPS. Do you have a spare (Motorcraft or International) CPS that we could try?
Also, we need to know whether the IPR was new or what the deal was there ( I know I mentioned that above, but that is really key).
And again, I am not sure where you're reading all this stuff as I have never heard of some of these things you're saying were suggested.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 6
From: Medford Oregon
I don't know of a way to ohm out the ICP itself, what procedure did you use? You can do voltage checks and harness checks though. The actual error codes when using a scanner would help also. A good reference guide ...
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi.../DOBDSM971.pdf
Confused about when cranking hot, you indicated ICP pressure at 280 and IPR% at 11. That's about right when first 1/4 second cranking or so however IPR% should rise very rapidly as PCM demands increased oil pressure. Did I read that wrong?
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi.../DOBDSM971.pdf
Confused about when cranking hot, you indicated ICP pressure at 280 and IPR% at 11. That's about right when first 1/4 second cranking or so however IPR% should rise very rapidly as PCM demands increased oil pressure. Did I read that wrong?
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Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
Thanks for getting back. Here are 2 links concerning the info I was citing to start off:
Ask a Mechanic - A deep look at the 7.3L Power Stroke
ECSD - Injection Control Pressure (ICP) Sensor - 1994-1997 Power Stroke FAQ
Another I printed out but cant find the site right now is entitled:
Technician High Pressure Pump Guide for the 7.3 Power Stroke Engine
I can upload it if you like.
Replaced the IPC last week after doing the the inj o-rings 2nd time around. Frustration concerning that and my still ever present shudder led me to ohm out the ICP from the article I printed out from the 2nd hyperlink above.. One connector had 600ohms when it should have exceeded 1K. Went to the dealer that day as soon as it warmed up to get a new ICP but no joy.
Bought a new IPR from local injection shop at a very fair price and installed it today. I checked all connections for wire degradation of some sort but saw nothing. I replaced my Fuel pressure restrictor earlier this summer as it was leaking. Had noticed a leak on the ground and checked but saw nothing but with a wiggle at the right time I was inspecting, it came squirting out but the harness and connections are good. I always use de-oxit to spray all connections when I'm doing something that requires removal are something electrical....great stuff!
Just ran out right now to scan and with engine still hot it wont start but I got ICP of 250-270 and from 11 to 32%. I shut off key and disconnected the ICP and restarted to scan up to 2671 psi and 34% but no start. Before I dove into the swap this morning and while the engine was warm. I unclipped the IPR and the engine shut down. reconnected and got about 2500 and 55% but no start. I then tore into it.
With cold engine start the numbers were ( checking my notes) it started with 560-600 and 13-14%, went to higway and stomped it up to 90mph seeing 2600 something and a high of 43 i think.
I took a scan and seem to rememver a P1211 but I'm not too sure cause I cleared them and maybe I'm just getting number buggy from what I've been reading but it has not resurfaced if it was indeed that. I did shoot a code P1272 & 4 high to low side open but have yet to check it out thoroughly. I really dont want to take off the VC's right now but I did notice the clip broken off the engine harness so I'll have to do the pigtail. So that'll probably take care of that. I also shat a couple codes for my air intake temp and glow plug circuit. I have the napa 6637 with the sensor laid down and my glow plug are bypassed with momentary switch. I replaced the switch but it went bad and I just recieved a replacement so its currently out of circuit until I do that later this week.
Concerning the CPS, never have but I'm orderering 2 right now from rifraff. Just one of things I never got round to.
BTW what does the low side/ high side mean? Which terminal of an injector is a high side or low side if that's what I had to test?
Ask a Mechanic - A deep look at the 7.3L Power Stroke
ECSD - Injection Control Pressure (ICP) Sensor - 1994-1997 Power Stroke FAQ
Another I printed out but cant find the site right now is entitled:
Technician High Pressure Pump Guide for the 7.3 Power Stroke Engine
I can upload it if you like.
Replaced the IPC last week after doing the the inj o-rings 2nd time around. Frustration concerning that and my still ever present shudder led me to ohm out the ICP from the article I printed out from the 2nd hyperlink above.. One connector had 600ohms when it should have exceeded 1K. Went to the dealer that day as soon as it warmed up to get a new ICP but no joy.
Bought a new IPR from local injection shop at a very fair price and installed it today. I checked all connections for wire degradation of some sort but saw nothing. I replaced my Fuel pressure restrictor earlier this summer as it was leaking. Had noticed a leak on the ground and checked but saw nothing but with a wiggle at the right time I was inspecting, it came squirting out but the harness and connections are good. I always use de-oxit to spray all connections when I'm doing something that requires removal are something electrical....great stuff!
Just ran out right now to scan and with engine still hot it wont start but I got ICP of 250-270 and from 11 to 32%. I shut off key and disconnected the ICP and restarted to scan up to 2671 psi and 34% but no start. Before I dove into the swap this morning and while the engine was warm. I unclipped the IPR and the engine shut down. reconnected and got about 2500 and 55% but no start. I then tore into it.
With cold engine start the numbers were ( checking my notes) it started with 560-600 and 13-14%, went to higway and stomped it up to 90mph seeing 2600 something and a high of 43 i think.
I took a scan and seem to rememver a P1211 but I'm not too sure cause I cleared them and maybe I'm just getting number buggy from what I've been reading but it has not resurfaced if it was indeed that. I did shoot a code P1272 & 4 high to low side open but have yet to check it out thoroughly. I really dont want to take off the VC's right now but I did notice the clip broken off the engine harness so I'll have to do the pigtail. So that'll probably take care of that. I also shat a couple codes for my air intake temp and glow plug circuit. I have the napa 6637 with the sensor laid down and my glow plug are bypassed with momentary switch. I replaced the switch but it went bad and I just recieved a replacement so its currently out of circuit until I do that later this week.
Concerning the CPS, never have but I'm orderering 2 right now from rifraff. Just one of things I never got round to.
BTW what does the low side/ high side mean? Which terminal of an injector is a high side or low side if that's what I had to test?
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Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
HPOP technicians guide
Here;s the link:
http://www.fordtechservice.dealercon...iagnostics.pdf
Since I decided to keep the truck this past spring I've been collecting info on all aspects of the truck to better understand it and help in its troubleshooting. I'm forming my 7.3 bible notebook which I keep in the cab to help me out.
You fellas are light years ahead of me and I appreciate your immense help.
http://www.fordtechservice.dealercon...iagnostics.pdf
Since I decided to keep the truck this past spring I've been collecting info on all aspects of the truck to better understand it and help in its troubleshooting. I'm forming my 7.3 bible notebook which I keep in the cab to help me out.
You fellas are light years ahead of me and I appreciate your immense help.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
Blown HPOP
Talked to Clay yesterday and ordered the T-500. He said I most probably broke a spring and therefore it was working 1/6 less capacity but not enough with hot oil, to not create enough presuure to start on a hot start.
The fella is always great, never seemed hurried and always seems time to talk. Anyway, ordered a couple of CPS's as well and although they were fronm the 99 year up, he said they;ll be fine. Today when I got home I decided to check the possibilty of a cracked uptake oil tube. The test requires 3 minutes at 3300rpm and if IPR exceeds 1400 for federal, withinin th first 30 seconds, I should add 2 quarts of oil, elevate the rear by approx 10" and run it blah blah blah. Turned out it didnt go that high son I decided I didnt have to go further so I slowly throttled it down and when it reached 1100, I dropped it and it stalled which it never had done before under any circumstance. It started to put out some white/blue smoke at the 2 1/2 minute mark, which again has never ocurred. I plugged in the scanner and of course it would not start but surpriseingly, the IPR registered "0". @ hours later it would not start, when it should have according to the lastest history. I hop I didnt fry the hpop cause I have to go to work romorrow....time will tell.
The fella is always great, never seemed hurried and always seems time to talk. Anyway, ordered a couple of CPS's as well and although they were fronm the 99 year up, he said they;ll be fine. Today when I got home I decided to check the possibilty of a cracked uptake oil tube. The test requires 3 minutes at 3300rpm and if IPR exceeds 1400 for federal, withinin th first 30 seconds, I should add 2 quarts of oil, elevate the rear by approx 10" and run it blah blah blah. Turned out it didnt go that high son I decided I didnt have to go further so I slowly throttled it down and when it reached 1100, I dropped it and it stalled which it never had done before under any circumstance. It started to put out some white/blue smoke at the 2 1/2 minute mark, which again has never ocurred. I plugged in the scanner and of course it would not start but surpriseingly, the IPR registered "0". @ hours later it would not start, when it should have according to the lastest history. I hop I didnt fry the hpop cause I have to go to work romorrow....time will tell.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Western Ma
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Whew, I thought when I saw that link that when I clicked on it I was going to be face to face with our 'ol buddy Bill from PowerstrokeHelp.com. I am glad you didn't do that to either of us.
In as far as that page is concerned, I have never seen nor heard of it before. Hopefully the truck restarts and it is nothing major. 3300 RPM for 3 minutes on a 7.3 Powerstroke makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up! I am not sure what that would accomplish other than to make sure the oil is really hot. Hopefully once it cools down the engine will restart.
In as far as that page is concerned, I have never seen nor heard of it before. Hopefully the truck restarts and it is nothing major. 3300 RPM for 3 minutes on a 7.3 Powerstroke makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up! I am not sure what that would accomplish other than to make sure the oil is really hot. Hopefully once it cools down the engine will restart.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,121
Likes: 3
From: Orrville, Ohio
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,505
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From: Livoina,La