1999 - 2003 7.3L Power Stroke Diesel  
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: DP Tuner

AC Injector Talk!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
  #1  
Old 09-05-2012, 07:56 AM
Tugly's Avatar
Tugly
Tugly is offline
Hotshot
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbia River
Posts: 18,797
Received 111 Likes on 66 Posts
AC Injector Talk!

I'm about a breath away from ordering some stage 1 injectors and I still have a few questions. A fellow member is having issues with his and we are exchanging emails and PMs. I'd like to have an open exchange of information and experiences, including digging into some of the specs on these. If it was just me, I'd handle it in PMs. I see many trucks are getting odo readings where injectors are due and this is a popular upgrade, so I hope many can gain from this thread.

I'm jumping to the middle because I already have a lot of my questions answered, but I hope the readers feel free to ask questions that pull us back to the beginning. My current question:

Since the single-shot ACs have a capacity for 160 (compared to stock split-shot 140s), are the nozzles bigger to get the 160 out, or does it just use the extended open time to get more fuel out?
 
  #2  
Old 09-05-2012, 08:14 AM
indyF-350psd's Avatar
indyF-350psd
indyF-350psd is offline
you can't fix stupid!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,903
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
i run swamps 175/146 stage 1 sticks.....so mine are a bit bigger than stock but retain the stock nozzle.....very happy with them and power increase for towing is nice.......
 
  #3  
Old 09-05-2012, 08:19 AM
CSIPSD's Avatar
CSIPSD
CSIPSD is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 4,993
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
An AC injector is 160cc single shot... It has a stock nozzle unless you order/install larger nozzle.

The fact that your helping people via PM's scares me... The amount of misinformation that is exchanged that way is frightening...

I've posted this before, but I guess some forgot to read it...

Larger nozzles- By installing larger nozzles you are makeing the nozzles less restrictive so that more fuel will flow out of them with everything else being the same. Stock injectors with stock programming and larger nozzles will get more fuel out and make more power. Stock injectors only modified to have more fuel capacity with stock nozzles and stock programing will run exactly like stock injectors. In this case the only way to get more fuel out is with a chip to extend the open time of the injector and/or increase the Injection Control Pressure (ICP) to push more fuel out the nozzle. On the same note if you say make a hybrid (installing a larger 7mm plunger and barrel out of a DT466/I530E injector) and leaving the intensifier piston the same will effectively reduce your injection pressure. This less injection pressure will make less pressure at the nozzle and will actually flow less fuel with a stock nozzle than a bone stock injector. So to get the fuel out without a chip you would need larger nozzles.

There is also a point where the stock nozzle just wont flow enough fuel to get the desired amount out in a realisitic time frame. That's why high capacity injectors require larger nozzles to use that capacity.

Codes- All powerstroke and T444Es come with A code injectors. A code injectors have a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston. What this does is multiply the ICP so that injection pressure is adiquate but not having to have huge amounts of ICP like say in the 20,000 psi range. This difference give you approximately a 7:1 difference and therefore increases your injection pressure 7 psi for every 1 psi of ICP.

All DT466s and I530E injectors are B codes. Of those some DT466s and all I530Es have a 7.1mm plunger, hense more fuel per mm of stroke, with a 17.5mm intensifier piston. This gives you approximately a 6:1 ratio. So no it will not have quite as high of ICP as as the A codes but it's not as bad as it could be. However due to the larger intensifier piston they reqire much more high pressure oil to make the piston stroke the same distance. This is why you need a high pressure oil system with a higher capacity.

Hybrid injectors are taking the 7.1mm plunger and barrel out of a BD code I530E injector and installing it into an A code injector with a 16mm intensifier piston. As you could imagine the down fall is that the injection ratio is dropped to approximatly 5:1 further decreasing injection pressure. However with the smaller intensifier piston it requires no more oil than an equivilant A code yet it flows the same amount of fuel as a B code. The result is much more fuel capacity without the need for more high pressure oil volume.

A codes and B codes can be further broken down as well.

A and AA injectors came in the '94-'97 non-california trucks. They are all 90cc injectors and are single shots.

AB injectors came in the '97 cali, and all early '99 trucks. They are split shot injectors meaning they fire a small pilot shot before the main shot. These injectors flow 130-135cc of fuel.

AC injectors are found in the high torque version of the T444E and do not come in any Powerstrokes. They have the same internals as the AB injectors with the exception of the single shot plunger and barrel. However due to them being single shot injectors they flow 160cc. This is due to the way the split shots work. They have a small passage that opens, much like a port in a two stroke engine, that are uncovered that bypass the injection pressure out the side of the barrel instead of out the end through the nozzle. Because of this pause a portion of the travel of the plunger does nothing for injecting fuel so a split shot injects less fuel for the same amount of travel as a single shot.

AD injectors are also split shot but flow 135-140cc of fuel due to a slightly longer plunger stroke. These are found in all late '99-'03 Powerstrokes and T444Es.

AE and AF injectors are essentially the same as AD injectors but were called a long lead injector that was used as an attempt to cure a "cackle" issue many people complained about.

BA, BB, and BC injectors are essentiall all the same and are the same as AC injectors but are found in some DT466s.

BD injectors are the only B codes with the larger 7.1mm plunger and barrel that are single shot injectors. These are the injectors people are usually talking about when they are talking about putting I530E injectors in their Powerstrokes.

BE injectors are essentially the same as the AD injectors but found in some '97-'99 DT466s.

EF, BG, BI, BJ, BN and BP injectors all have basicly the same capacity and are split shots. However the nozzles vary on them depending on application. They can be found in many DT466s and I530Es.
 
  #4  
Old 09-05-2012, 08:21 AM
CSIPSD's Avatar
CSIPSD
CSIPSD is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 4,993
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by indyF-350psd
i run swamps 175/146 stage 1 sticks.....so mine are a bit bigger than stock but retain the stock nozzle.....very happy with them and power increase for towing is nice.......
Bit bigger then AC's... Quite a bit bigger then stock...

I ran a set of 175/173's several years ago, some of the best performing "stage 2" injectors I ever ran.
 
  #5  
Old 09-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Franko72's Avatar
Franko72
Franko72 is offline
Molon Labe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Alaska
Posts: 5,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'll post up my experience within the week or so. I'm pulling my tired AB's (281k) today and sending them off to Jim Rose @ Rosewood diesel.
They'll be 160cc single shots when I get 'em back.
I'm going with stock nozzles.
 
  #6  
Old 09-05-2012, 10:15 AM
HD Rider's Avatar
HD Rider
HD Rider is offline
Cargo Master
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glendive, MT
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
Your answer is in Joe's post.
 
  #7  
Old 09-05-2012, 10:42 AM
CampSpringsJohn's Avatar
CampSpringsJohn
CampSpringsJohn is offline
Hotshot
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melbourne, Ky
Posts: 14,067
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Subscribing for the info!
 
  #8  
Old 09-05-2012, 10:52 AM
Crewcab Turbo's Avatar
Crewcab Turbo
Crewcab Turbo is offline
Fleet Mechanic

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Marseilles IL
Posts: 1,430
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
When its time to replace my stock injectors I will be in the market for larger injectors. Will AC injectors be a worthwhile upgrade with stock nozzles? Or would larger nozzles be a better option to be able to adjust them with tuneing? When I do upgrade I want a noticeable difference in power.
 
  #9  
Old 09-05-2012, 10:59 AM
CSIPSD's Avatar
CSIPSD
CSIPSD is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 4,993
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Crewcab Turbo
When its time to replace my stock injectors I will be in the market for larger injectors. Will AC injectors be a worthwhile upgrade with stock nozzles? Or would larger nozzles be a better option to be able to adjust them with tuneing? When I do upgrade I want a noticeable difference in power.
AC injectors with stock nozzles and a stock turbo will put down about 340-350hp...

With a 38R they should be around 350-370.

With 100% nozzles they can be taken very damn close to 400hp.

The 100% nozzles will allow for shorter PW, lower ICP duty cycles, lower EGTs and better smoke control...
 
  #10  
Old 09-05-2012, 11:07 AM
Crewcab Turbo's Avatar
Crewcab Turbo
Crewcab Turbo is offline
Fleet Mechanic

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Marseilles IL
Posts: 1,430
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Well that makes it sound like the AC's and 100% nozzles are the way to go for me?
 
  #11  
Old 09-05-2012, 11:29 AM
CSIPSD's Avatar
CSIPSD
CSIPSD is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 4,993
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
If you want a truck that will pull about anything you can hook to it, and not worry about it blowing up, breaking down or having any other issues...

AC's and 100% nozzles in my opinion are the cats meow.
 
  #12  
Old 09-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Crewcab Turbo's Avatar
Crewcab Turbo
Crewcab Turbo is offline
Fleet Mechanic

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Marseilles IL
Posts: 1,430
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by CSIPSD
If you want a truck that will pull about anything you can hook to it, and not worry about it blowing up, breaking down or having any other issues...

AC's and 100% nozzles in my opinion are the cats meow.
That's exactly what I'm looking for in an injector. And it seems to be what the op is looking for also.
 
  #13  
Old 09-05-2012, 11:57 AM
Pitcrw6's Avatar
Pitcrw6
Pitcrw6 is offline
Logistics Pro
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 4,410
Received 16 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Crewcab Turbo
Well that makes it sound like the AC's and 100% nozzles are the way to go for me?
Same here.
@ Joe, that is some good info. Thanks for posting it since I have never read that before.
 
  #14  
Old 09-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Tugly's Avatar
Tugly
Tugly is offline
Hotshot
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbia River
Posts: 18,797
Received 111 Likes on 66 Posts
I have read that many times, but I wasn't 100% sure if the nozzle would fall under the heading of "internals"... hence, the question.

One caveat to 100% nozzles: I have read where the fuel pump can't keep up with those nozzles. I have also read (right here on the forum) where some members just barely have minimum fuel pressure on stock injectors at WOT. I saw a warning on a site that sells Full Force injectors, stating a bigger pump was needed for anything above Stage 1s. I have not yet found a hard-and-fast rule on Stage 1 vs. Stage 2, but here is what I have surmised, based on how the websites list the injectors.

Stage 1 = 160 with stock nozzle

Stage 2 = 160 or larger with larger than stock nozzle.

Seeking input on the above.
 
  #15  
Old 09-05-2012, 02:42 PM
CSIPSD's Avatar
CSIPSD
CSIPSD is offline
Postmaster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 4,993
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Tugly
I have read that many times, but I wasn't 100% sure if the nozzle would fall under the heading of "internals"... hence, the question.

One caveat to 100% nozzles: I have read where the fuel pump can't keep up with those nozzles. I have also read (right here on the forum) where some members just barely have minimum fuel pressure on stock injectors at WOT. I saw a warning on a site that sells Full Force injectors, stating a bigger pump was needed for anything above Stage 1s. I have not yet found a hard-and-fast rule on Stage 1 vs. Stage 2, but here is what I have surmised, based on how the websites list the injectors.

Stage 1 = 160 with stock nozzle

Stage 2 = 160 or larger with larger than stock nozzle.

Seeking input on the above.
Couple things...

Avoid discussion of Stage 1 or Stage 2 injectors... Its completely worthless to tell someone you have "stage 1 injectors". CC and nozzle size...

I have run stock, 160, 175/80, 175/100, 238/80, 238/100 and 250/200 injectors... All but the 250/200 are perfectly fine, and happy with the stock fuel pump. Matter of fact I ran a completely stock, COMPLETELY stock fuel system, pump and such with my 175/100 with out issue. The 238/100 is the first time I had fuel pressure issues, at WOT.

You will have no fuel pressure issues with a set of 160/100 injectors assuming you have a good functioning fuel system (something I know your rather fond off...LOL).

Here is a good guide to injector size in relationship to HP...

The most common question I see for guys wanting to pick injectors is what to get and why.

There is a general formula I like to use that is 2.3HP for every CC of fuel that you can use effectively. Do these numbers jive with what everyone is seeing in the real world?

So figuring RWHP with an automatic trans. This takes into account horsepower peak happening between 2600-3000RPMs. All numbers based on single shots.

Here are some common injector combinations and the power level they usually accommodate. This also assumes you can maintain proper HPOP pressure.

I am also using common street nozzles 30% EH, 80% and 100% EDM nozzles. The larger nozzles allow you to push the power peak up into the higher rpms and make more HP. These are typical fuel only numbers because nitrous oxide allows you to peak the power lower in the RPM scale and make more peak torque and therefore more HP. There are so many variables that these are merely general guidelines.

General Rule of Thumb max power with no nitrous (but a properly matched turbo):

90cc stock nozzle 225HP
130cc stock nozzle 260-290HP
160cc stock nozzle 300-345HP
160cc 30% nozzle 350-360HP
180cc stock nozzle 300-350HP
180cc 30% nozzle 370-390HP
180cc 80% nozzle 400-425HP
200cc 30% nozzle 385-410HP
200cc 80% nozzle 400-440HP
200cc 100% nozzle 420-460HP

238cc 30% nozzle 440-475HP
(depends on air flow in lower rpms can make 550HP with nitrous for example)

238cc 80% nozzle 450-520HP
238cc 100% nozzle 465-550HP
250cc 30% not much gain over 238cc with 30%
250cc 80% nozzle 460-530HP
250cc 100% nozzle 470-575HP

It gets sketchy above that number due to the other variables that are involved with HP levels much above 550. Also remember that RPM can play a major factor. Somebody have corrections or want to add anything?
 


Quick Reply: AC Injector Talk!



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 PM.