adjusted choke already, and upon closer inspection noticed that iam missing a idle screw for when choke is engaged. earlier i had set time to 12 checked it this evening and it was at 2 advanced. re adjusted timing and she is puring pretty nice again thinken maybe a dizzy jigglen going to mark the block and dizzy in the morning. mmmm wonder if this could be a time chain issue, maybe worn like in chevy had this happen on a 350.

 

hmmm...don't know about that.

A worn timing chain should not make your timing wonder. Only if it skips a tooth and then your engine would not be purring

You're not fighting a vacuum issue are you? You are making your initial timing with the vacuum disconnected and plugged right?

I have seen where the sheer pin on the distributor drive gear sheers off and the drive gear slowly rotates and slowly throws your timing off. I fought this issue on an old VW I had where i would time it and it would stay for about a week then would have to re-time it.

Threw a new distributor in (this one was in bad shape anyway so didn't just replace gear/pin...plus it was about $30).

Easy to check....yank the dist out and see.

 

These motors don't have timing chains. They're direct gear drive like the Cummins diesels. A "timing chain" can't stretch or slip on these motors as there is no chain. It's part of what gives them their characteristic sound when you blip the throttle and what makes the bottom end so strong (that and 7 main bearings, but almost all inline 6's since the late 60's have had 7 mains). The only issue like that you could have is where Ford used phenolic (fancy term for plastic) gears on their earlier 6's so the timing gears wouldn't whine. After high miles and good use, it's not uncommon to need to replace the timing gears with a set of Cloyes metal gears, then the issue with shearing teeth off the gears is non-existent.

If you set it at one thing, then go back it and check it later and it's reading something else, I would suspect the harmonic balancer has slipped.

Like 82F100460 says, it could be a distributor problem too, especially if the motor starts running different afterwards.

Also, if your motor is stock using the stock distributor, carburetor, and the rest of the ignition system, 12 degrees BTDC is too early. My motor came from the factory set a 6* and some others came from the factory at 8* BTDC.

If you're still running the Motorcraft DSII module, then it's got a built in spark-retard in it that will automatically retard the timing while cranking so it starts easier (which would be part of the problem with your hard cold starts, the module is setting the timing back even lower than 12* BTDC, probably around 14 or 15 degrees).

Set your timing at 8 or 6* BTDC (it'll say on the label on the radiator support under your hood... and on your valve cover if you've still got a legible sticker) and leave her be.

 

Kevin is right, as always. If the timing chain skips a tooth then the engine won't run correctly even if you reset the timing. However, it might idle ok but it won't pull properly, or vice versa. Edit: I forgot this is a 6 and has no chain. Duh!

And, always set the timing with the vacuum line disconnected and plugged.

 

Yes.

I edited my post above with some more info if you want to add anything Gary.

 

Right...wasn't paying attention to what engine we were discussing. He mentioned timing chain so I went with it. And I can't imagine any of the original phenolic gears are still good after 30 years by now. when I pulled my timing cover off I had at least 4 of those teeth broke off....and of course they were all in the oil pan.

As for the harmonic balencer slipping. I know this can happen but that would just through the indicated timing off correct? Not the actual timing. In this case, the engine was running poorly and when he reset the timing it ran great again. So it sounds like something is throwing the actual timing off and that, if true, has to be something between the cam and distributor. The drive gear being most likely unless something drastic is wrong with the actual distributor.

 

When the ignition automatically retards the timing, wouldn't it take it back toward zero (TDC)? Not take it to 14 or 15...that's further advancing and not retarding right?

 

Retarding generally makes your initial timing farther towards (and away from 0) BTDC though, so I would think it would go towards 14 or 15 if he had the motor set as low as 12. The factory made it retard the timing so it would crank and start easier.

Either way, it needs to be at 6 or 8*...

And yes, on the harmonic balancer and the distributor. If the balancer slips, the only real thing that will happen is the motor will start to shake and shimmy in the engine bay and your marks will be off. If it's a problem with the distributor, then the physical timing will be changed, like you say.

 

ok so probly tommorrow night i will be checking the dizzy to make sure it is all good and just to clearify. the truck fights starting after sitting over night or for more than 4 hours. i dont believe this to be a balancer slipping issue cuz when i reset timing the engine runs smoother in apperance and sound. i set the timing at 11 or 12 being thats a few degree before i get any pinging or anything. i will have to wait to check timing gears and stuff being i dont have the money to repalce gaskets and oils just yet i need a oil pan so when i do that ill check the gears too. oh yea yes iam setting timeing with vac. adv. dis connected and pluged, i think iam going to get some rubbing achol. and put it in a spray bottle and check for leaks tonight around intake and booster.

 

Re-read what we posted...

It's more than likely a distributor issue... there isn't anything wrong with your gears or balancer. If you want to pull the balancer and timing cover just to look, and maybe check the gears to see what kind of condition they're in, go ahead. Like Kevin said, if there was a problem with cam timing, it wouldn't "purr" after you reset the timing.

You're getting pinging if you go any higher than 11 or 12 degrees? Is your EGR hooked up? If not, hook it up and reset your timing back to 6 or 8*. You won't lose any power and you'll get better MPG when cruising down the highway with the EGR enabled. Also, your pinging should stop due to the nature of how an EGR works.

Also, and I know this thread has already been on here "a while", but you'll probably get more responses from the other knowledgeable members if you use better punctuation and space your text into paragraphs. People like Gary or Chris typically won't even look at a thread if it doesn't look like people can follow grammar rules (and no, I'm not saying you're illiterate or anything of that nature, but when it's clean, it's easier to read and understand).

Keep us updated and let us know how things go.

 

Ok, sorry my grammar sucks this is a true statement. And my thoughts typically are run on thoughts, but i will try thank you tons. And as far as my egr i think it is their is this the vavle between the intake and exhaust? And hooking it up????? i got the truck and all the vacuum lines were cut. this truck has been converted to duraspark. I dont remember if i but that in the begining
How would i hook up the egr? And what source of vacuum would i use?

 

My manual says 700 automatic in neutral. 600 neutral manual tranny.

6 or 10 degrees is considered normal depending on engine calibration with distributor vacuum removed and plugged. I would try six, then ten, and see which worked the best.

Be sure to unplug the vacuum advance and plug it as described as certain engine calibrations will jump it up to 14 if it's connected.

I have mine set to 8 degrees. 2 degrees more than standard for my engine for best fuel economy.

As for the retarding, advancing issue. Think of 6 degrees BTDC as minus-6. 6 degrees ATDC as plus+6.

Take 4 away from -6 and you get -10. Add 6 to -6 and you get zero.

Advanced timing is the ignition firing before the cylinder reaches the top, or firing at -10 degrees before it reaches the top. The more advanced the timing the more it fires before the cylinder reaches TDC.

Make sense?

 

ok guys. Ive checked the dizzy and all seemed well their. Normal wear and tear marks but nothing loose or hinting being loose.

Now i have done some new things to the truck in a attempt to fix other issues.

1st I installed a missing choke idle screw. after installing this and adjusting the electric choke. I tested it and the engine was pretty cold. Cranked up nicly. the true test will be in the morning when i go to work.
2nd the electric choke on the carb had a tube on it at the jy that was connected somwhere down south of the head. I believe this to be a heated air tube for cold starting. Iam unsure really. I know their was vacuum present at it when truck is running so i plugged with a brass fitting to be safe.
3rd I ran a vacuum line to the egr nipple. I hooked it to a full vacuum at idle being unsure as to were to hook it up too. and unsure if it has made any mpg improvements yet.

i have plans to replace the intake and exhust gaskets tuesday on my day off being i just got a new job at a parts store and get a huge discounts. The set of intake and exhust with the fuel pump gasket to will cost me 3 and change. i have a exhust leak up their so i figure it very possible i have intake leak as well. But will see hope it will help it run better!!!!!

 

A couple of things. First, the tube is a hot-air supply to the choke, and the carb was jetted expecting some air to be drawn in there so it will be a bit richer with that plugged. And, you may have a hard time getting the choke to work right w/o that. Dad's '81 was supposed to have that and no connection to the electric choke heater, but the tube rusted out so I hooked up the electric heater. It works, but the proof will be this winter when it gets COLD.

Second, if your engine runs with the EGR hooked to manifold vacuum the EGR valve may be bad. The engine won't even run at idle with the valve open, so it isn't opening. However, I read somewhere that not all of them will open at idle with full vacuum. Anyway, I think something is wrong.

 

ok so that hot airtube can that be a tube that tuns down to the exhaust manifold and ends just prior to the edge to pick up hot air? and how can i check the egr to see if its working or not? and what should a working egr be hhoked to, ported?