Let me preface by saying that this is actually a car project, not a truck project. I've done a bit of looking around, and you guys seem to be the most informed on ford-based things. Anywho, on to the project.

A couple years ago, I acquired a 78 Thunderbird with a 302. It's mostly stock, and I love the car to death. The problem lies with the engine, as it's grossly underpowered for such a large car, and with the three-speed auto, gets grotesque gas mileage.

What I would like to do is take a modern, modular engine, and swap that into my Thunderbird. Perhaps a 4.6 or a 5.4 and transmission out of a newer car, and do a full transplant. Any one of the modular engines would get me a net gain in torque, horsepower, and reliability.

Now the questions. The first is, which vehicles should I look at for a donor engine? The most obvious answer would be a newer Thunderbird, but given they're a bit rare, was leaning towards a Crown Victoria. Given their extensive use as taxis and police cars, and their status as a fleet vehicle, they should be readily available.

Second question: Besides the more obvious modifications like driveshaft, engine mounts, and electronics mounting, are there any other hidden problems I might run into doing this kind of swap?

Third: Will there be a dramatic change in handling of the vehicle? I'm not sure how much weight difference there is between the two engines, so I don't know what kind of weight distribution changes there will be.

Please don't try to talk me out of it, I've had lots try, but I'm personally convinced this is the way to go to make my car an even better fit for me. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

welcome to FTE.
a lot of people have put mod engines in a lot of different cars, so it is doable.
i know of 4 mod engine powered falcons, so putting one in a boat like a t-bird will be no problem.

i am in the starting stages of putting 78 pickup cab nose and bed on a 2000 F-350 with a 5.4.

a 4.6 crown vic will be easiest way to do it. find yourself a running donor car and go for it.
the biggest hurdles are going to be electrical. mounting he computer will not be that bad, but making the electronic dash from the vic fit into the bird and look rite is going to take some work.
you should be ble to use the crown vic rear axle in the bird to adapt the electronic speedo.

it sounds like a fun project.

 

I have a 94 T-Bird with the 4.6 factory in it. Biggest thing to watch on your plans is the width of the engine. The mod engine is wider than the 302 was so you may have interference issues with things like the shock towers unless yours had a big block option then it would probably be much easier. Another thing is the early 4.6 had 2 valves, later ones with the PI heads had more power to them. The DOHC and 5.4 are bigger yet so a tape measure is your friend in this case.

Finding a complete donor car is a good suggestion. That way you can get the motor, trans, ECM and all the wiring at one time. Also watch if you get a donor with a PATs system (chipped keys), you'll have to deal with that also unless you program it out of the computer.

Good luck.

 

Yeah this could be a doable swap. If you pick up some of the Mustang magazines off the newsstands (early and late model), visit their websites or hit up some Mustang forums you should see that it's done often and there are several ways to go about it.

The number one issue with these swaps is the physical size of these motors. They are huge! Their width is comparable with the biggest of big blocks. Most folks swapping them into the early unibody cars have to cut out the front suspension and weld in a more compacted design; usually a Mustang II setup. Now a 78 TBird is a fairly wide car with a pretty open engine bay. One might fit. Or it might not. You're going to have to take a bunch of measurements to see. Then, of course, you're have to fab motor mounts, trans mounts, and a dozen other small things to get the engine physically into the car.

Electrical wise, you can go about this in a couple different ways. You can get engine harness, computer and associated sensors and such from the donor vehicle. Then it's a matter of slaving over factory wiring schematics and figuring out what you need and what you don't need. This has been done many times before and should be document on the web somewhere. You can get an aftermarket controller. This seems to be the easiest way to maintain EFI. They are fairly expensive but are mostly plug and play. You'll have to learn how to set up fuel maps and spark tables through a laptop computer. I've met some pretty simple folks that could do this so if you understand basic computers and basic mechanics it feasible to think you can learn how to do this. And then there is the easy, cheapest and fastest way to do this. A carb swap. There are a few aftermarket carburetor manifolds on the market, the most prominent being made by Edelbrock. These are used in conjunction with a standalone ignition box that plugs into the factory coils. The only issue here is needing to use a separate controller for an electronically control trans. You could get away from this by using a manual transmission or an adapter to fit a C4 or AOD.

Also not all MOD motors are the same. There has been a lot of variations over the years from the first 190hp Lincoln 4.6 to the new 650hp 5.8 that coming out in the new 2013 GT500. You have the high winded all aluminum NA 32v Cobra motors, the supercharged Teminator, Shelby, lightning and GT motors and the grunt induced 457 ft-lbs from the tow spec Triton V10. You have 2v, 3v and DOHC 32v engines. You have PI and non-PI 2v heads. You have twin port and tumble port DOHC heads both with a few different port sizes. You have Romeo and Windsor Iron blocks and Teksid and Windsor aluminum blocks all four being slightly different castings. I don't think that there was another Ford engine family with so much variations and I know there wasn't one that changed so much in such a short amount of time.

But what does this mean? Well, simply know what you're buying. It won't matter much if you get a Windsor or a Romeo block (just know which one you have when it's time to order parts) but it will matter in final output if you get a non-PI engine compared to a PI. Your donors can be anything; Crown Vic, Town Car, TBird/Cougar, Mustang and don't forget the trucks (same motor, they just called them Tritons to make people feel special). They all got different version throughout the years so you're going to have to do your research to figure out what will work best for what you want to do. IMO this is what I would do. Find a 99+ 4.6 PI 2v from aforementioned vehicle. Then top it with the Edelbrock Carb intake and ignition package. Back it by an AOD and run a 3.73 gear in the rear. Or for a bigger boost in low end torque use a 2V PI 5.4 truck motor, same intake with adapter plates (to mate the 4.6 intake to the wider 5.4,they're available from a few online retailers), and the same AOD and a 3.55 rear. This would be the easiest way to do this swap.

So, after all of that, to answer your questions
1. Donor vehicle? It's according on what you're looking for but they can be found in the Town Car, Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, TBird/Cougar, Mustang, Explorer, and trucks and vans . The 2v 4.6 are a dime a dozen so be picky and find a well taken care of one. Don't forget to look at truck and van motors but beware that the 5.4 could be backed by a 4R70W (same trans as the cars) or a 4R100 (a heavy duty truck trans). If buying as a set know what you're getting.

2. Hidden Problems? The physical size of the engine is going to come into play. IF (notice that it's a big if) the engine will fit into the car there could be issues with getting exhaust routed out of the engine bay. Also, these motors are revvers. Especially with the 4.6, they have to be revved high to make a lot of power (that's why I suggest going with the 5.4). With such a big car you'll be in the go petal a lot to get it up to speed and to maintain it. That's the same problem you're having with the 302. It would be a shame to go through all this trouble to have the same issue.

3. Weight difference? Yes, the MOD motor weights more that a SBF. How much? Well the resources I have seen have different weights but you can be sure that you're going to gain somewhere between 75-150 lbs. Will that make a difference? Yes and no. Of course more weight to push around and more weight on the nose of the car will make it slower and handle different. But, if built right, the MOD motor will put out more HP than your low compression smog spec small block so that's not that big of a deal. And your car had the optional 351M/400 engine and those motors are more in line with the weight of a MOD motor. If you get any funky handling after the swap then just change to M-motor spec springs and shocks.

Bonus! I won't try to talk you out of doing this swap. A lot of people like the MOD motors. They push 4K lbs late model Mustangs around all day so a properly build one shouldn't have a problem with your TBird. But I will toss out different options (I'm sure you're heard them before). Get the 302 out of there. It is way too small for that car as you know. But a 351W would be a welcomed injection of torque and with a good breathing set of heads can make more than enough HP. It would be a bolt in swap, using the same motors mounts and trans, only needing some small mods on the exhaust and accessory drive to work. The 351M and 400 Modified motors were optional on your car. That means that the parts are available to bolt them in. Don't discount the power of a well built 400. With its long stroke it has torque potential like few other motors. Plus with those wonderful Cleveland heads it can breathe at the top end too. These motors only need a bump in compression, a good cam and an opened up intake and exhaust track to get 400+ HP out of them. They can get OK MPGs built right and staying out of the gas and with adapter plates you can put AODs behind them too for the best of both worlds. Of course the 460 could go in but I don't think that's the direction you're heading.

All in all it's your car. Build it the way you want. I figure you're had good luck with a MOD motor since you want to go in this direction. Good Luck! It's going to be a lot of work but when you're done you will have a very cool car. And one that will stand out in this world of cookie cutter rides. I do ask if you start this project to open a project thread on this site. You can do it here, rename and continue this thread or start it down in the Project Forum but, please record this for us (we're a truck forum but most of us love Ford cars too so you're okay--post away). Fill it full of pictures and tell us of every triumph and failure. Accept people praises and criticisms. And in the end, if it works or not, have fun.

 

Holy Crap! I didn't mean to write that much.

Okay dude, you have to do the swap now.

GET TO WORK

And how about some reps for the effort

 

Thanks for all the wonderful information! There are actually a few reasons I want to go modular over the traditional motors. The biggest one being fuel injection. Everyone I've talked to have told me that fuel injected motors start better during cold months. For three months out of the year our weather tends to stand around 0 degrees f, with regular dips into the negatives, so if I can get better reliability in the winter, that's a definite plus.

The other big reason is just the convenience of it. Finding a good running vehicle with the older engines is getting harder and harder to do, and the prices are still going up. But with the modern vehicles, a lot of junkyards in the area have cars that are in fine running condition, but get scrapped because the owner went and rolled it or something and the insurance doesn't want to cover it.

I'm not too worried about power, simply because 90% of my driving is highway. So it's just got to get and maintain speeds. Even at stock specs, the first gen modulars put out close to 30% more power than my current engine.

The thing that really inspired the whole idea of using a modular engine though is my fathers pickup. It's an 05 f150 xlt. Despite having a larger engine and weighing 1400 pounds more, it gets close to double the highway mpgs that my car does. (19mpg vs 11mpg respectively). My assumption has always been that it's increased mileage is due to a better tuned, more efficient engine and an overdrive transmission.

And anything I can do to make my baby last another 34 years will make me a happy camper.

 

Well, again, I won't try to talk you out a MOD swap but this is worth saying.

If EFI and a overdrive transmission is all that you're after then you could use a late model 302. Okay, 5.0 Mustangs still demand a premium but you can also find them in Tbirds/Cougars, Mark VIIs and Explorers/Mountaineers. You can buy these complete on the cheap. I found these in ten minutes of searching
Ford : Thunderbird Ford : Thunderbird | eBay
Ford : Explorer Ford : Explorer | eBay
Lincoln Lincoln | eBay
Ford : Thunderbird Ford : Thunderbird | eBay
If you look hard I'm sure you could find more in better shape and for less money. Then it's just a matter of setting the two cars side by side and swapping things over until it works. The roller short blocks are more efficient than the older small blocks from the 60s and 70s, they have a good multi point EFI system and they have useable overdrive autos.

Or you could build your own EFI engine with one of the other engines I listed before (351W, 400). Top it with any of the aftermarket port injection systems and back it by an AOD and you're looking at MPGs in the low 20s during highway driving. You could use one of these
Professional Products 70026 - Professional Products Powerjection III Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Holley 550-411 - Holley HP EFI TBI Engine Management Systems - Overview - SummitRacing.com
FAST 30226-KIT - FAST EZ-EFI Self-Tuning Fuel Injection Systems - Overview - SummitRacing.com
MSD Ignition 2900 - MSD Atomic EFI Fuel Injection Systems - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Edelbrock 35410 - Edelbrock Pro-Flo 2 EFI Systems - Overview - SummitRacing.com
ACCEL 77157 - ACCEL DFI Pro-Ram Fuel Injection Systems for Ford 351W - Overview - SummitRacing.com
and back it with one of these
TCI Auto 431000 - TCI StreetFighter Transmissions - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Hughes Performance 56-1 - Hughes Performance Street and Strip Transmissions - Overview - SummitRacing.com
And these are just some quick options I pulled up in a few minutes. There are many more as close to a Google search away.

But I won't say anything else about it. You want a MOD motor and that's what I'll help you get.

I'm going to say what will serve you the best is going to be a 5.4 and 4R70W from a 99-03 F150 or half ton van. These shouldn't cost you much more, if anything, over a 4.6. The car spec 4.6 is in higher demand because folks are starting to realize they CAN be hot rodded and swapped. But you will get a lot more for your money with a stock 5.4 compared to a stock 4.6. I'm guessing that's what your dad has in his truck (though a 05 would be a 3v). With an open air intake and free flowing exhaust one of these 2v engines wouldn't have any problem carrying your TBird at highway speeds. I'd say mid 20s could be expected riding at the speed limit. Hell, my wife's Mustang, with its 3v 4.6 and manual trans, gets high 20s and can break into the 30s on good southern 93 octane. And that's going a "little" more than the limit.

Yeah bro, I think, if it will fit into your engine bay then a 5.4 is the way to go. Find a complete 2wd donor truck and just swap parts until it works.

 

I've seen a few of those aftermarket EFI units around online, but I wasn't sure about how good they were.

I'm certainly open to other motor options. Only chose the modular to begin with was because of how commonplace they are these days. Can find v8 Crown Victorias for about $1,000. There are also a reasonable amount of 2wd trucks up here with v8s in them, but they're usually farm trucks so maintenance tends to be hit and miss with them.

My dads truck has the 5.4 triton in it. I tried talking him into letting me have it for my car, but no dice.

And the only reason I asked people not to try and talk me out of it, was because every time I bring it up with some of my more knowledged automotive friends, they always tell me to just leave my car alone and buy a little 4-banger.

 

Well, that's an idea but what little 4 popper s**t box out there is going to be as cool as a long nose 70s Thunderbird? But sometimes we have to pay a price to be cool.

If you can buy a complete Crown for $1K then go for it. That's cheaper than any of the EFI systems I just showed you. I imagine that those are going to be former cop cars and taxies though. Be careful what you buy. Like I said 4.6s are everywhere. Be picky. No reason to swap in a motor with 200K+ miles under the right foot of a cop or taxi driver (not saying that they're ALL bad drivers or don't care about company/government vehicles).

On a side note, I've been forming a plan for a cool build based on a cop car chassis. I figure that I can get myself a newer decommissioned Police Interceptor, pull the body from the frame and toss on the ratty early 50s Ford body on it (preferably a 4 door). They had the same wheelbase and I think I could adjust the track with the backspacing of the wheels to get the rubber under the sheet metal. I'd keep the 4.6 in place but strip the EFI off of it. I'd top it with the Edelbrock intake and a carb. I'd yank the auto out and back it up with a cheap T45 5 speed from a Mustang so I wouldn't have to worry about a trans controller. I figure I could do all of this for around $4-5K maybe less. Then I'd have an old rat rod with the best handling factory full frame chassis ever made and an efficient, modern drivetrain too. That sounds kind of cool to me.

 

Hell, that has me thinking. What's the wheelbase on your TBird?

 

114 inches. She's a big girl.

 

Cool. She's a sharp ride

You know the Crown Vic is on a 114.7 wheelbase. If you have a few fabrication skills I feel an idea a brewing...

 

My fabrication skills are a fair bit rusty. Any work that I do end up doing on my girl I'm going to have to borrow/rent/steal tools for. Want to get everything planned out before I start anything.

If you're thinking what I think you're thinking, that's probably beyond my skills.

 

Too bad. What I was thinkin' would have been cool. But theres nothing wrong with the chassis under that Bird.

So do you have a set budget for this? If you do something other than a MOD motor are you willing and able to build it (space, tools, time, etc)? What type of time frame are you working with?

 

I don't actually have a budget at all yet. One of the things I was hoping to learn. But with a donor vehicle, I'm thinking around $3,000 would be a decent place to start.

I have basic diy tools, any specialty things I have no qualms about buying/borrowing/renting.

Time frame, I have all the time in the world. Ideally, I'd like to do it within a year, but that's entirely dependent on whether or not I can get the budget.

I'm nowhere near the most qualified person in terms of current knowledge, but I have the time and dedication to learn everything I need to know before I start.