What tuner upgrades actually WORK?
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
What tuner upgrades actually WORK?
Just did a swap from a 95 F450 into a 92 F250. Minor differences. Kept most of the 450 parts because research said the stock injectors, valves and throttle body were slightly larger. Overall slight stock horsepower difference. 450 engine also had a stock oil cooler that ties directly into the water cooling system. Thought that was a darn fine idea even though it's kind of clumsy looking, so I kept it.
Added an Edelbrock Performer+ camshaft, 50% increased return valve springs, aftermarket heavy duty double timing chain with indexable sprocket, shaved the heads 10 thousandths. Added the largest H/O oil pump I could get without putting in a deep sump oil pan(HUGE size difference from stock, it barely fit and made the stock one look absolutely anemic). Also oversized the oil passages by 50% over stock and chamfered the return passages in the heads. Would have been 120psi in the stock passages but the oversizing dropped it back to 60ish. As a result, the overall volume difference is staggering and it now blasts tons of oil into the heads.
Modified the E4OD into a heavier duty trans. Extra planetary gears, more bands and a billet torque converter. Bangs through every gear when not under load. Custom single pipe 3" exhaust for maximum torque return.
I'm done with the cam break in period. Got it timed to spec for the cam. Runs good, and the cam profile is exactly as advertised. My torque curve reaches it's max at about 1200rpms and is flat all the way to about 4500 until it falls off. Now I'm addressing the issues I'm left with. At an idle, I have a severe intermittent stumble that goes away when engine is above idle. When towing, even though I can tell there is more power, it still seems to be short of what it should be. What I have found is that my cam profile is outside the specs that the ECM can handle. So now I am left thinking that my only hope is getting a better brain that will handle upgrades like what I have done.
What I want to know is, what tuner upgrades actually WORK? I would like to make the truck as smart as possible.
Added an Edelbrock Performer+ camshaft, 50% increased return valve springs, aftermarket heavy duty double timing chain with indexable sprocket, shaved the heads 10 thousandths. Added the largest H/O oil pump I could get without putting in a deep sump oil pan(HUGE size difference from stock, it barely fit and made the stock one look absolutely anemic). Also oversized the oil passages by 50% over stock and chamfered the return passages in the heads. Would have been 120psi in the stock passages but the oversizing dropped it back to 60ish. As a result, the overall volume difference is staggering and it now blasts tons of oil into the heads.
Modified the E4OD into a heavier duty trans. Extra planetary gears, more bands and a billet torque converter. Bangs through every gear when not under load. Custom single pipe 3" exhaust for maximum torque return.
I'm done with the cam break in period. Got it timed to spec for the cam. Runs good, and the cam profile is exactly as advertised. My torque curve reaches it's max at about 1200rpms and is flat all the way to about 4500 until it falls off. Now I'm addressing the issues I'm left with. At an idle, I have a severe intermittent stumble that goes away when engine is above idle. When towing, even though I can tell there is more power, it still seems to be short of what it should be. What I have found is that my cam profile is outside the specs that the ECM can handle. So now I am left thinking that my only hope is getting a better brain that will handle upgrades like what I have done.
What I want to know is, what tuner upgrades actually WORK? I would like to make the truck as smart as possible.
Last edited by Onyxdrake; Jan 8, 2012 at 02:59 AM. Reason: Adjusting spacing. Cluttered.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,868
Likes: 9
From: Rhode Island
I don't know where you got the information on the F-450/F-Super Duty 460, but it's wrong. Same heads, injectors, valves, intake, throttle valves, etc..as the F-250/350 460s. The F250/350 460s had the oil cooler as well. The later F3TE EFI 460 heads had slightly bigger intake valves than the earlier E7TE EFI heads, but they weren't an F-450 exclusive thing.
Your problem is two fold.
1st: As you figured, the relatively simplistic speed-density fuel injection doesn't know you made any changes. There are no plug-in tuners available for these trucks, like the later 96/97+ Trucks.
You only really have two options: 1. Get a Moates Quarterhorse + Binary Editor, which connects to the service port on the computer itself. Unfortunately, speed-density computer support is lacking, especially for the trucks.
Your best bet honestly would be to call around to local tuning shops, and see if one can dyno-tune your truck, and burn you a chip to plug into the service port on the EEC-IV itself.
2nd: The EFI 460 heads are worthless, and really choke the engine down without port work. My 0.450L single-cylinder dirt-bike engine has a larger exhaust port than the factory EFI-460 exhaust ports. A cam is only going to get you so far without getting the heads ported. With bigger valves and good porting + headers, the EFI heads can be made to work quite good.
Your problem is two fold.
1st: As you figured, the relatively simplistic speed-density fuel injection doesn't know you made any changes. There are no plug-in tuners available for these trucks, like the later 96/97+ Trucks.
You only really have two options: 1. Get a Moates Quarterhorse + Binary Editor, which connects to the service port on the computer itself. Unfortunately, speed-density computer support is lacking, especially for the trucks.
Your best bet honestly would be to call around to local tuning shops, and see if one can dyno-tune your truck, and burn you a chip to plug into the service port on the EEC-IV itself.
2nd: The EFI 460 heads are worthless, and really choke the engine down without port work. My 0.450L single-cylinder dirt-bike engine has a larger exhaust port than the factory EFI-460 exhaust ports. A cam is only going to get you so far without getting the heads ported. With bigger valves and good porting + headers, the EFI heads can be made to work quite good.
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Thanks for that. Know of any dyno tuners in Washington?
What I was referencing in my statement for the swap was the chassis difference, you are correct, I should have referenced the year difference instead. I think of them more in terms of chassis because of what I use them for and their capacities. Sorry for that misleading statement. The stock 92 had 230hp and 390ft/lb of torque, the 95 had 245hp and 395ft/lb of torque. The 95 has a slightly larger intake valve, exhaust valve is the same. I keep getting conflicting info as to whether the throttle bodies are slightly different or not.
I do beg to differ with you a little on the valve porting, the EFI heads don't seem to gain much for performance with porting and larger valves to justify the cost. I've talked with a guy on a different forum who owns a large machining/pro shop and was experimenting with incrementally porting a 96 F350 with a 460. The improvements were so marginal, he couldn't justify all the work. He ended up with an extra 75 cfm of draw, lowered his exhaust temps a bit and got a little more power on the dyno, but nothing worth justifying all the cost. He was doing the work on his own engine that had modest fuel and air upgrades. When I went with the Edelbrock cam, it was as aggressive as I could go with the stock valves according to Edelbrock. Do you have an example to reference?
My overall objective is to increase the torque as far as possible without turbo/supercharging or anymore internal mods. I'm on a budget so tuning mods and bolt on performance parts are my last resort. I was thinking of larger injectors and a performance throttle body as well. The 92 F250 is my primary towing vehicle until I get the 7.3L into the 95 F450 so it needs to last awhile. I tow an equipment trailer and 10,000lb excavator.
When I first got the truck with 100K on it, it struggled a little on the hills under load. 70K later, I actually had it power out on a hill. Now, after the rebuild, fresh bottom end, heads completely rebuilt and all the rest I referenced, I'm back to struggling slightly on hills. Of course, when it isn't under load, the acceleration is massively better than stock.
I wish I had more splits!
What I was referencing in my statement for the swap was the chassis difference, you are correct, I should have referenced the year difference instead. I think of them more in terms of chassis because of what I use them for and their capacities. Sorry for that misleading statement. The stock 92 had 230hp and 390ft/lb of torque, the 95 had 245hp and 395ft/lb of torque. The 95 has a slightly larger intake valve, exhaust valve is the same. I keep getting conflicting info as to whether the throttle bodies are slightly different or not.
I do beg to differ with you a little on the valve porting, the EFI heads don't seem to gain much for performance with porting and larger valves to justify the cost. I've talked with a guy on a different forum who owns a large machining/pro shop and was experimenting with incrementally porting a 96 F350 with a 460. The improvements were so marginal, he couldn't justify all the work. He ended up with an extra 75 cfm of draw, lowered his exhaust temps a bit and got a little more power on the dyno, but nothing worth justifying all the cost. He was doing the work on his own engine that had modest fuel and air upgrades. When I went with the Edelbrock cam, it was as aggressive as I could go with the stock valves according to Edelbrock. Do you have an example to reference?
My overall objective is to increase the torque as far as possible without turbo/supercharging or anymore internal mods. I'm on a budget so tuning mods and bolt on performance parts are my last resort. I was thinking of larger injectors and a performance throttle body as well. The 92 F250 is my primary towing vehicle until I get the 7.3L into the 95 F450 so it needs to last awhile. I tow an equipment trailer and 10,000lb excavator.
When I first got the truck with 100K on it, it struggled a little on the hills under load. 70K later, I actually had it power out on a hill. Now, after the rebuild, fresh bottom end, heads completely rebuilt and all the rest I referenced, I'm back to struggling slightly on hills. Of course, when it isn't under load, the acceleration is massively better than stock.
I wish I had more splits!
Last edited by Onyxdrake; Jan 8, 2012 at 02:46 AM. Reason: Playing with the spacing, can't figure out which setting works
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,868
Likes: 9
From: Rhode Island
Larger throttle body really won't help - since you aren't flowing enough air to warrant it.
Check this thread out: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...ts-are-in.html
He gained ~70RWHP with fully ported heads with larger valves and a set of headers.
Check this thread out: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...ts-are-in.html
He gained ~70RWHP with fully ported heads with larger valves and a set of headers.
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Actually, as it turns out, that is the forum I was referencing. However, the information I came away with was before the thread proceeded forward with the positive results. sigh
A point of contention though, on that same thread is a link to an article from 4 Wheeler magazine that lists a Twin 61mm throttle body replacing the OEM on a 460. "...decreased the octane requirement of the fuel therefore dramatically reducing fuel cost per mile in that sense... saving the equivalent of 6% fuel savings per mile. Power was significantly increased by 22 hp and 31 ft lbs of torque and the throttle response was very notably improved."
Chasing the link through to the finished product, what I currently have on my engine isn't very far removed from what they have. I'm missing the fuel regulator, Hypertech performance chip, headers and custom tune. Notable differences, they list 2.5" dual Exhaust while I have a custom 3" single pipe, they went with custom cats whereas I don't have cats(there was a provision in my model year for farm trucks that didn't come with cats), I have a much more aggressive cam profile.
Wouldn't a more aggressive cam do better with a less restrictive air intake? They are listing 343hp with 684ft/lb torque which is where I need to be close to for my application.
A point of contention though, on that same thread is a link to an article from 4 Wheeler magazine that lists a Twin 61mm throttle body replacing the OEM on a 460. "...decreased the octane requirement of the fuel therefore dramatically reducing fuel cost per mile in that sense... saving the equivalent of 6% fuel savings per mile. Power was significantly increased by 22 hp and 31 ft lbs of torque and the throttle response was very notably improved."
Chasing the link through to the finished product, what I currently have on my engine isn't very far removed from what they have. I'm missing the fuel regulator, Hypertech performance chip, headers and custom tune. Notable differences, they list 2.5" dual Exhaust while I have a custom 3" single pipe, they went with custom cats whereas I don't have cats(there was a provision in my model year for farm trucks that didn't come with cats), I have a much more aggressive cam profile.
Wouldn't a more aggressive cam do better with a less restrictive air intake? They are listing 343hp with 684ft/lb torque which is where I need to be close to for my application.
Last edited by Onyxdrake; Jan 11, 2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: spacing
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,868
Likes: 9
From: Rhode Island
I don't know what they mean by water through the throttle body. The 460 throttle body does not have coolant running through it. If you can find a bigger throttle body cheap then sure, go for it, but the stock throttle bodies are big enough to support over 400HP. People say that a bigger throttle body makes a big difference on these trucks, but most of the "gains" they feel are from the truck requiring less pedal to flow a certain amount of air.
Headers and especially a cam will make a big difference. For your power goals, you will need bigger injectors and a tune for sure though.
Headers and especially a cam will make a big difference. For your power goals, you will need bigger injectors and a tune for sure though.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Ben_E
Big Block V8 - 385 Series (6.1/370, 7.0/429, 7.5/460)
4
Oct 22, 2015 07:31 PM
8LugSlug
Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W)
15
May 22, 2011 06:18 PM
Encho
Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W)
6
Apr 18, 2010 04:07 PM
