I tell you what; you guys have given me quite a bit to think about and great history lesson. It was very interesting to read. Thanks guys.

 

You are welcome. It was fun and done in the spirit of fun - w/o poo slinging, although I haven't figured out why anyone would want to sling that poor little bear.

And, sorry to hijack your thread. 'Tis yours again and we hope to hear, soon, that you've gotten the carb installed and everything is rosy.

 

No worries about the hijack. It gave me what I asked for. An honest accounting of the good and bad of both carbs. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Can you tell me where I should hook up the lines at 1, 2 and 3?

 

Lavatan - Go here: Edelbrock.com - Tech Center - Installation Instructions 1000 / 10000 Series
and download the 1406 installation instructions. Figure 1 on Page 2 answers your questions directly - I think.

 

PCV valve goes to 3. I'm not 100% but I believe #1 is ported vacuum and #2 is manifold vacuum. Vacuum advance on the distributor should go to manifold vacuum, #2. Test it first though. Manifold will have vacuum at idle, ported will not.

 

That is the one thing (well one of many) that I don't understand. Where is ported vacuum located? I have a vacuum line in the manifold so that's where #2 will go. I didn't know that vacuum advance went to manifold vacuum as well.

 

I'm going to weigh in on this one, there is an old formula for calculating carb CFM needed. It is Cubic inch displacement X efficiency X RPM / 3456 = CFM, so for a 460 it would be 460 ci X maybe 80% or .8 X 4800 / 3456 = 511.1 CFM. More realistically, figure 70% efficiency, and even going to 5000 rpm = 465 cfm. I used to run a carburetor shop and had no end of pimply faced kids with Holley 780s on 283 Chevys who couldn't understand why 1 it wouldn't open the secondaries and 2 it would bog when you stood on it.

The efficiency is the volumetric or pumping efficiency of the engine. A real good race engine will push 95%, a truck engine 70 - 75%.

 

This is no time for logic or the weird thing you call math LeBaron. As far as where vacuum ports connect up I downloaded the installation manual and it's odd... In the diagram it says #1 (on the left) goes to distributor vacuum advance port for emissions controlled engines. #2 (on the right) goes to distributor vacuum advance port for non-emissions controlled engines. Does this mean that I can go ahead and plug the one on the left? After reading some more it says to feel for full vacuum. I'm guessing since I took off all the EGR stuff it is going to be a full vacuum system.

 

Ok, on my 86 460, the distributor had direct vacuum, just used a delay under certain conditions, EGR was ported.

 

Each of us have our own pet way to plumb distributor advances. I find that things work for me better when I put ported vacuum to the dizzy, meaning that it doesn't get vacuum until you step on the gas. But, the beauty is that you don't have to pick once and for all. You can move the cap from one port to the other and the line to the opposite one at will. However, when you put full vacuum to the dizzy your idle speed will go up significantly so you will have to readjust that.

 

Ummm... Number 3 is the fuel intake from the fuel pump, not PCV valve.

 

Just got done reading an interesting post on an Oldsmobile forum... Here is the post that I found real interesting:

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.

Hope I don't spark another debate. XD

 

As I said, each of us have our own pet theories regarding vacuum advance. His is well described and sounds good. But, it wouldn't have worked on the 351W I just sold as the idle speed would have been approaching 1000 RPM. That's because that carb wouldn't let me close the throttle blades as far as I needed to for whatever reason. With ported advance the idle speed was/is where it ought to be.

Another issue he didn't address, and one that has caused me problems several times, is an unstable idle. What happens is one of two things: In some cases the engine runs well and the vacuum goes up so the advance increases so the speed goes up so the vacuum..... On the other hand, some times the engine doesn't run quite as well/fast and the vacuum isn't there so the advance isn't there so the RPM isn't there so the vacuum isn't there...... I've had several instances of unstable idle with more than one vehicle when using manifold vacuum to the advance. But, by going to ported-vacuum the problem went away in every case.

 

OK. well, I guess I'll have to play with it. I can always switch back and forth if necessary. Working on computers is so much easier...