Hi all. I have a 86 F350 1ton automatic with the 460. I have over the last year or so been experiencing starting issues. Its occurrence is totally random.

When trying to start, it immediately sounds as though the battery is low. I turn the key and it sounds like there just is not enough to start it. Some times it will do this and after a second try start right up but other times it will not start at all.

When it doesn't start after trying it again the Ground lead from the battery to the engine block will start to fry. SOMETIMES if I back the key off (to the off position) it will stop other times I need to take the key out completely and yet other times I have had to hurriedly disconnect the negative lead from battery even AFTER taking the key out.

Sometimes it seems as though its caused by the ignition switch I say this cause of the key in and key out reaction. Its as though with the key in there is a live connection that does not cut off. Again this ONLY happens once in a while NOT every time it catches me completely off guard every time.

So yesterday it did it again. I had drove the truck about 6 miles parked it for a few hours and when getting back in this is what happend this time.

Turned key and felt it labored as if battery was low. Tried it again negative lead started to get hot. took key out and it stopped. A few hours later I tried it again. I replaced the negative lead connector to the battery at a friends and since I had no tools with me just hand tightened the connector on to the OLD wire (the old connector had melted a bit when I tried it earlier so I just cut it off and replaced it to try and get some reaction. I'm going to replace the wire but at this time all I did was replace the connector. SO i turn the key and it starts right up but immediately after starting I hear this odd sound and thought it was outside (not the truck) but it was in fact the starter still engaged (not positive but pretty sure it was that). I immediately turned it off and then tried it again it started up like normal.

As a note what it DOES do on a regular basis it when starting it sounds as though its not going to turn over but always does (except of course when it does this)

I know this is kinda long but I wanted to include as much info as I can. About 6 months ago I replaced the ignition control module (in the engine compartment mounted on fender well) thinking this was the cause. Now Im not to sure because in the past when this has happened looking back after letting it sit for a while solves the problem?

I almost forgot one night recently I left the key in the ignition over night and the next day the battery was very low or dead.

thank you for any help.

 

Sounds like you have a bad solenoid. Either that or you have a bad ignition that is causing power to continue to flow even without it engaged. I would check the solenoid first though. With the starter being engaged even after the key is in the run position it sounds like the solenoid is getting stuck.

 

thanks for your reply Lavatan. I forgot to mention that I replaced that as well a either prior to or after the ignition control module. I cant remember which one I suspected first at any rate they are both about 6 months old. Which I know from experience doesn't really mean a whole lot with parts these days. Thanks again. I started it up this morning and it started like a new truck. Its driving me nuts.

Yesterday I purchased a new ignition switch and a new ignition lock cylinder. But did not install either.

 

Many new replacement starter solenoids - esp. the Chinese ones - have got terrible reputations on here.

As the old ones wear/burn out, sometimes the contacts weld themselves together and the solenoid sticks in place.

Other times, there isn't enough contact made between the components that get crossed together, with the end result being too much current flowing through too small of a conductor.

Many times these days, it seems the contacts on brand-new solenoids will weld themselves together resulting in the starter motor continuously getting power.

Here are some pictures of an old one...

Here is with the cover removed:


Here is with the plunger removed... When the solenoid is energized (via the small red/blue-stripe wire) an electromagnet connects together both fat cables via a round, washer-looking-type of contact:


Here is a close-up, notice all the pitting of the contacts:






The next time the starter continues to turn after shutting off the key, jump out and remove the small red/blue-stripe wire from the solenoid (#5 in the diagram) and see if it stops.

If it doesn't stop turning, the problem is in the solenoid; if pulling the wire makes the starter stop, the problem is in the wiring from the solenoid up to and including the ignition switch on the column.

 

thank you Ctubutis I saw this explanation and diagram on another post and will definitely try it next time.



"Other times, there isn't enough contact made between the components that get crossed together, with the end result being too much current flowing through too small of a conductor."

This sounds more like what is happening to me because it seems to me that if the contacts weld themselves together it would be a one time occurrence and require the immediate replacement of the solenoid because being welded together the starter would just keep going until i disconnected the battery. Am I understanding correctly?

At any rate OTHER than waiting for it to happen again is there another way to trace the source?

thanks again

 

I think you're basically understanding me correctly, but there are two discrete concepts we're talking about - the amount of current a starter motor needs to draw to operate, and that solenoid staying "on" (or sticking, resulting in the starter always turning) when it shouldn't be....

About it sticking...

That copper washer-like thing has a spring on it that is supposed to push it back off of the contacts (connected to the posts onto which the fat cables get connected)) when the electromagnet is discharged (charging it draws it inwards to the electromagnetic coil, thereby connecting both sides together via the washer-like thing).

That washer-like thing also rotates around to distribute the wear and make the entire assembly last longer.

But, as you can see by the pitting, sometimes good connections aren't made, and electricity arcs across from the post contacts to the washer-like-thing contact, which results in more pits being made (or made larger).

A starter drawing too much power will exacerbate this effect.

This arcing can also result in the parts "welding" together, but they're very weak welds and can usually be broken by rapping on the solenoid with a screwdriver handle or some such.

If those post contacts aren't connecting to the washer thing sufficiently, but the same amount of electricity is drawn through, it will heat up where the conductor (or circuit) is reduced in capacity.

The circuit makes a complete loop - battery to solenoid to starter to ground and back to battery.

Now, if your negative battery cable/connector is heating up, that implies a bad connection THERE, or a bad cable THERE, at that location.

It could also be that your starter motor is on its way out and is drawing way more power than it should be, as will happen with an internal short circuit.

If you have a volt meter, see if you have 12V at that red/blue-stripe wire at the solenoid when you turn the key to START, and have 0 volts when not in START.

But the problem is intermittent, that makes it hard to locate until the problem appears.

You could take the truck to WalMart, or a full-service gas station, or Sears, or maybe even a parts store, and ask them to do a load test on the starter motor, this is generally a free service and will tell you if the starter is pulling more current than it should be.

The column-mounted key tumbler assemblies gunk up over time (the grease in them gets dirty) and sometimes the tumbler won't spring back by itself to RUN from START, but I have never seen that happen to the point that the starter motor keeps turning, the only effect I've ever seen is the interior electrical stuff (radio, wipers, etc.) won't work because the switch isn't fully in the RUN (or ON) position.

It is possible the column-mounted switch isn't oriented correctly, or has been broken, and you can probably reach your hand under there and to the top of the column and feel around to see if anything is loose but I really doubt anything is (assuming no dorkin' around up there by a PO).

It is also possible to have an intermittent short circuit in the wiring between the solenoid & switch but the chances of that are also somewhat remote; the most common cause of this problem is el-Cheapo solenoids.

A Motorcraft replacement is around $30 at the Ford dealer last I checked (although I understand they're now made in Mexico, some have said China but I've never seen any proof of that claim).

This is the longest explanation on this problem I've ever written, I should maybe bookmark this or sumthin....

 

Thank you I understand much better. It appears there COULD be and or MAY be a few things going on here. Seems like a problem with the negative cable connection could have been then catalyst that caused some of the issues. Since I fried the connector off I purchased a new cable and connector. If that was the issue hopefully it did not damage the other components. I purchase a new ignition lock cylinder it was like $15.00 and the old one is kind of tight to turn so heck for 15.00 I'm just gonna replace it. At this point Im going to check out the other items you mention as well. Although this happens once in a blue moon..of course its at those times its most frustrating.

Thanks again.

I think making it a sticky is an excellent Idea. From what I hear this truck has a rep for issues like this..

 

No prob, hope it helps.

Ya know what I did to free up my key cylinder is remove it + the steering wheel + the ignition switch, cleaned out all the old grease, replaced with white lithium grease on the gears and dielectric grease in the ignition switch itself.

I really doubt there's anything wrong with your key tumbler thing (but it's nice, new chrome and looks all shiny I'll bet ) as it merely actuates the linkages that, in turn, actuate the ignition switch, and it's all those gears & linkages that bind up from the gunk.

 

This may be relevant: I had a weird situation where the truck would try to start itself without the key even being inside the cab! It would do this and also a couple of strange things as well. Replaced the solenoid 4 times and played with the ignition linkage. In desperation I went to a wrecking yard that specialized in fords. Explained the situation to an old counter guy and that I wanted an old solenoid because the new stuff was crap. He advised to look at the wire that attaches to the solenoid which has 2 or three (I can't remember which) wires joining into one. I cut back the rubber boot/insulation at that point and it was corroded to the point that the wires were very brittle. Cut back further and re-spliced. Hooked everything back up and problem solved. Hope this helps.

 

Uno,

I split this thread into two, the continuation is HERE.

 

If this is open for responses. . .

This is an easy fix to a common issue. The starter solenoid grounds through the mounting ears. take the solenoid off, sand the ears, clean the paint and rust off of the fender where the solenoid mounts, reinstall the solenoid with a thin film of dielectric grease on the back side of the mounting tabs.

Solved.

EDIT:
Been a while since I've been on the site, posted, THEN realized how the subforum was setup.

 

im having the same problem with mine somewhat after rebuilt bench tested starter and ugh nothing drawling power down when its off the starter kicks in and spins on the bench test but dont kick in when its put in after its been mounted

 

Use a voltmeter to see if the solenoid is delivering voltage to the starter side when the key is in START.

Neutral Safety Switch/Clutch Switch will keep the solenoid from being engaged by keeping power from being applied to the solenoid via the red/blue-stripe wire. Might test for voltage there in START, too.

 

the switch is fine ive checked that it started up until i replaced it with a rebuilt starter and then another rebuilt its on a 83 f150 xlt 4x4
can i mount the main ground somewhere else oher then the starter bottom bolt to save the hassle of that being in the way when remounting the starter??

 

Mount the negative cable on the engine someplace else if you like, the starter motor will find its ground through it so long as the starter's as well as cable's connections are clean and tight.