17" Budd Wheels - '46 1 1/2 Ton
#1
08-26-2011, 10:19 PM
17" Budd Wheels - '46 1 1/2 Ton
Hello all,
I am looking for a pair of 17" 5 lug Budd style wheels for a 1946 Ford 1 1/2 Ton truck I am working on. It has the two-speed Eaton axle, with the 5 lugs on a 7 7/8" - 8" bolt circle. Could anyone suggest someone that might have a pair available? Thanks!
-Nick
I am looking for a pair of 17" 5 lug Budd style wheels for a 1946 Ford 1 1/2 Ton truck I am working on. It has the two-speed Eaton axle, with the 5 lugs on a 7 7/8" - 8" bolt circle. Could anyone suggest someone that might have a pair available? Thanks!
-Nick
#2
08-27-2011, 10:11 AM
Nick - Are you sure you need/want 17s, since they weren't what was original to the truck? Matter-of-fact, I'd be sort of surprised if they'll fit over your rear drums. The originals would have been 20" x 5" and, as you said, would have the big truck 5 lug x 8" pattern. I've seen 17s used on a front axle, but, at least on the '48 to '52s, they won't clear the rear drums.
All that said, if you really want 17s, I've got several different part number Budd 17s that I could send. But since you live in NY, rather than buying mine you'd be much better off watching Craig's List locally. There are commonly guys with old Dodge motor homes who look to replace their 17s with one piece 19.5s. You'd be able to pick up some nice Budd #66520 wheels locally that are 17" x 6" for a song and you'd save the shipping costs. Another good option for you would be to find your own 19.5s (Budd #89340) for both front and rear of the truck and be done with the multi-part rims all together. Stu
All that said, if you really want 17s, I've got several different part number Budd 17s that I could send. But since you live in NY, rather than buying mine you'd be much better off watching Craig's List locally. There are commonly guys with old Dodge motor homes who look to replace their 17s with one piece 19.5s. You'd be able to pick up some nice Budd #66520 wheels locally that are 17" x 6" for a song and you'd save the shipping costs. Another good option for you would be to find your own 19.5s (Budd #89340) for both front and rear of the truck and be done with the multi-part rims all together. Stu
#3
08-27-2011, 02:35 PM
Stu,
Thanks for the reply! I recently picked up this truck, and it has four 17" wheels on it currently. I just went out and noticed that the rears do not clear the drums, and are spaced out about 5/8" to fit. I guess I am now looking for six 20" wheels, as I'd like to keep it as original as I can.
Thanks,
Nick
Thanks for the reply! I recently picked up this truck, and it has four 17" wheels on it currently. I just went out and noticed that the rears do not clear the drums, and are spaced out about 5/8" to fit. I guess I am now looking for six 20" wheels, as I'd like to keep it as original as I can.
Thanks,
Nick
#4
08-27-2011, 06:00 PM
OK, now you'll want to watch out for the type 20" wheels you find. Probably the original wheels on your truck were a "lock ring" style two piece design. All the wheel manufacturers (Budd, Kelsey-Hayes, and Motor Wheel Corporation) used outer rims made by either Firestone or Goodyear.
The most likely outer rim design on your truck would have been a Firestone "RH" or "RI" that I'll post a diagram of below. These wheels have a solid/continuous ring that is squeezed past the rim lip at time of tire installation. A job for professionals.
In the late 1940s, however, Firestone came out with what they called an "advanced design" outer rim. The technical term is Firestone "RH-5°", but today we call them "widow makers". You'll want to avoid these wheels. The name of the "RH-5°" is obviously similar to the "RH", but the designs are entirely different. The "RH" can still be safely serviced, but no reputable shop will touch the "RH-5°" today.
The Goodyear designed outer rims, by and large, had split rings that simplified tire installation. These can, however, be damaged by a too aggressive installer. A sprung ring is supposed to be replaced, but after 60 or 70 years you'd never find one of the correct design to match the wheel. Mix matching rim and ring designs is also very dangerous and must be avoided. I'll link below two OSHA sites that go into the subject. So, here are pictures and cross section diagrams of the "RH"/"RI" and of the "RH-5°". The distinctive feature of the "RH-5°" is the raised band like area that you'll see on the concave side of the rim. That's the joint where the halves connect. Stu
http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/osha_Rim%20Matching.pdf
http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/osha_Demount-Mount.pdf
The most likely outer rim design on your truck would have been a Firestone "RH" or "RI" that I'll post a diagram of below. These wheels have a solid/continuous ring that is squeezed past the rim lip at time of tire installation. A job for professionals.
In the late 1940s, however, Firestone came out with what they called an "advanced design" outer rim. The technical term is Firestone "RH-5°", but today we call them "widow makers". You'll want to avoid these wheels. The name of the "RH-5°" is obviously similar to the "RH", but the designs are entirely different. The "RH" can still be safely serviced, but no reputable shop will touch the "RH-5°" today.
The Goodyear designed outer rims, by and large, had split rings that simplified tire installation. These can, however, be damaged by a too aggressive installer. A sprung ring is supposed to be replaced, but after 60 or 70 years you'd never find one of the correct design to match the wheel. Mix matching rim and ring designs is also very dangerous and must be avoided. I'll link below two OSHA sites that go into the subject. So, here are pictures and cross section diagrams of the "RH"/"RI" and of the "RH-5°". The distinctive feature of the "RH-5°" is the raised band like area that you'll see on the concave side of the rim. That's the joint where the halves connect. Stu
http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/osha_Rim%20Matching.pdf
http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/osha_Demount-Mount.pdf
#6
08-28-2011, 02:47 PM
The only Fords, only Fords, to use the Budd style deeply dished 17" wheels having the big trucks' 5 lug x 8" pattern were the 1947 and earlier one ton Marmon-Herringtons, and the 1948 to 1953 F-3/F-250 Marmon-Herringtons. The sources I've found for them are the 1948 and earlier Studebaker M15s, early '50s IHC L150 and R150s, and later Dodge based motor homes as mentioned above. If Nick looks at the back lip of his wheels and finds the number 59340 I might have interest in them. But I bet he'll find #44820 which was a pretty common wheel.
Back to Nick's original question. Finding good used locking ring 20" wheels will require searching old yards or finding guys like me that rescue them when found. Right now I'm down to only a couple that I've saved. I know of other guys that watch out for them too. Those guys hang out over on the 1948 to 1960 forum. Off the top of my head I'm not thinking of anybody in the northeast, but will check with a friend in CT that might know of yards in that region that might have a supply. The problem with these things is their shipping weight. You might pay $20 for a wheel, but shipping would cost you another $50 each.
I'll edit this again to suggest that you contact the friend I was gonna check with. Chuck Mantiglia of Chuck's Trucks in CT might have a set of lock ring wheels he'd sell. Probably wouldn't be as cheap as wheels from a yard, but you'd probably get nicer wheels if he's got them. He also I know he has the 22.5" wheels that are the tubeless replacements that came on the market in 1956. Here's the link to his web site. Stu
http://www.chuckstrucksllc.com/startframe.htm
Back to Nick's original question. Finding good used locking ring 20" wheels will require searching old yards or finding guys like me that rescue them when found. Right now I'm down to only a couple that I've saved. I know of other guys that watch out for them too. Those guys hang out over on the 1948 to 1960 forum. Off the top of my head I'm not thinking of anybody in the northeast, but will check with a friend in CT that might know of yards in that region that might have a supply. The problem with these things is their shipping weight. You might pay $20 for a wheel, but shipping would cost you another $50 each.
I'll edit this again to suggest that you contact the friend I was gonna check with. Chuck Mantiglia of Chuck's Trucks in CT might have a set of lock ring wheels he'd sell. Probably wouldn't be as cheap as wheels from a yard, but you'd probably get nicer wheels if he's got them. He also I know he has the 22.5" wheels that are the tubeless replacements that came on the market in 1956. Here's the link to his web site. Stu
http://www.chuckstrucksllc.com/startframe.htm
#7
02-18-2012, 03:05 PM
I have 12 X 20" original wheels with matching lock rings if anyone is interested. markboerner@hotmail.com
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#8
02-18-2012, 08:51 PM
17" Budd Wheels - '46 1 1/2 Ton
I'm in SoCal and I have 7 splits with correct matching solid lock rings (not widow makers) if anyone is interested. $50.00 for all. email if interested or for photos:
overhtlksoil@msn.com
Tim
Redlands, CA
909-747-2195
overhtlksoil@msn.com
Tim
Redlands, CA
909-747-2195
#9
05-14-2018, 05:40 PM
I’m in Canada and finding the lock rings in good shape is near impossible. I already have 5 brand new Coker transport rubber bought and paid for.
my question is if I go with a 1piece rim could I still use these tires and if so where could I purchase the 1 piece rim? If not where can I purchase a new set of lock rings?
my question is if I go with a 1piece rim could I still use these tires and if so where could I purchase the 1 piece rim? If not where can I purchase a new set of lock rings?
#11
05-14-2018, 07:27 PM
#12
05-14-2018, 08:17 PM
Hmmm. You already having the tires complicates things because building custom wheels using your current centers would be straight forward if you used 19.5” x 6” drop center tubeless outer rims. Your 17” tires nixes that idea.
Are your current wheels badly rusted in the base rims themselves, or are your rings bad? How many of each are bad? There were other 17” RH/RI style wheels that could donate their outer rims and rings to let you remount centers into. One that I have extras of is the Budd 44820 dually style wheel used by M-H and by Studebaker on their M15 model trucks. The drw centers could be pulled and your centers mounted. If you need centers and rims I think you are gonna have to keep looking for donors. Shipping into Canada is a p.i.t.a. which may leave you driving to collect the ones you find. I’ve done that which is no small chore I admit. I drove to Toronto from central Illinois to pick up three wheels.
Hopefully other guys will speak up that have donor wheels. I’ll keep thinking on it too to see if another solution comes to mind. Stu
Edit - an idea I just had could work. If you look up to the earlier posting showing the RH rim design you’ll see that they have a flat inner base rim. Your centers mount flat against the inside diameter of the rim. Other 17” dually wheels are commonly found on old Ford or Dodge motor homes of the 1960s/70s. These too have flat base rims that, once their centers were pulled, would accept your 17” centers. The example that comes to mind is the Budd 66520 that has a Goodyear split locking side ring design. These are not hard to find in yards. Stu
Are your current wheels badly rusted in the base rims themselves, or are your rings bad? How many of each are bad? There were other 17” RH/RI style wheels that could donate their outer rims and rings to let you remount centers into. One that I have extras of is the Budd 44820 dually style wheel used by M-H and by Studebaker on their M15 model trucks. The drw centers could be pulled and your centers mounted. If you need centers and rims I think you are gonna have to keep looking for donors. Shipping into Canada is a p.i.t.a. which may leave you driving to collect the ones you find. I’ve done that which is no small chore I admit. I drove to Toronto from central Illinois to pick up three wheels.
Hopefully other guys will speak up that have donor wheels. I’ll keep thinking on it too to see if another solution comes to mind. Stu
Edit - an idea I just had could work. If you look up to the earlier posting showing the RH rim design you’ll see that they have a flat inner base rim. Your centers mount flat against the inside diameter of the rim. Other 17” dually wheels are commonly found on old Ford or Dodge motor homes of the 1960s/70s. These too have flat base rims that, once their centers were pulled, would accept your 17” centers. The example that comes to mind is the Budd 66520 that has a Goodyear split locking side ring design. These are not hard to find in yards. Stu
#13
05-14-2018, 10:07 PM
Thanks Stu that’s a lot of great ideas there. I was thinking along those same lines since the centres are only rivets. I’d like to get out of the lock ring era altogether but I’m really wanting to stay as close to stock as possible. It was a matter of finding an outer that is narrow enough and flat to house the tubes and tires. If the donor rims have a bevel inside does that screw things up for the tubes?
#14
05-15-2018, 08:54 AM
This first picture is the Budd 44820 that I mentioned being commonly used on Studebaker M15s and on my M-Hs. This wheel has the exact same RH 4.33” outer rim/ring as your tonner wheels. I measured the i/d of the rim at 16.75”. My Firestone reference says the wall thickness of the RH/RI 4.33” is .141”.
This next picture is an early Budd 66520 with riveted center. Later 66520s have welded centers. This is a 6.00” wide rim made by Goodyear. My measurement shows the same 16.75” i/d, but likely that my gauge isn’t precise because Goodyear says the 6.00” rim is thicker at .156”. Your welder won’t notice the difference.
These Firestone and Goodyear measurements were industry standards agreed upon by company representives to the National Wheel and Rim Association trade group. (Amazing, isn’t it, that no government agency needed to be involved back in those years).
In your yard searches I would avoid if possible wheels that have the indents you mention. Those would serve to reduce the i/d of the rims and probably impact the fit of your center discs. Stu
This next picture is an early Budd 66520 with riveted center. Later 66520s have welded centers. This is a 6.00” wide rim made by Goodyear. My measurement shows the same 16.75” i/d, but likely that my gauge isn’t precise because Goodyear says the 6.00” rim is thicker at .156”. Your welder won’t notice the difference.
These Firestone and Goodyear measurements were industry standards agreed upon by company representives to the National Wheel and Rim Association trade group. (Amazing, isn’t it, that no government agency needed to be involved back in those years).
In your yard searches I would avoid if possible wheels that have the indents you mention. Those would serve to reduce the i/d of the rims and probably impact the fit of your center discs. Stu
#15
05-28-2018, 06:09 PM
