I've resisted asking this, for fear that everyone will jump all over me. I'm not an anti-war protester, I support our troops, and most of you know by now I'm no conservative. Anyways, here's my question: why are there so many US casualties in Iraq due to everything BUT combat with Iraqis? "Friendly fire," one of our missiles shoots down a British jet, helicopters take off, crash and kill everyone on board before they ever reach battle. Is it defective equipment? Poor training? You gotta admit, if these helicopters were Fords, they'd all be grounded and recalled by NHTSA.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely looking for information. I've never served in the military, so enlighten me. Maybe a vet can chime in here and let me know what's going on. I have a lot of concern for our fighting men and women, and I'd hate to think they're saddled with anything less than the very best this country can produce when it comes to their equipment.

 

Believe it or not but from I understand about it "Accident's are part of war"
War is not perfect and has many diffculties.

I imagine there are hundreds of things that aren't reported.
Broken or sprained ankles,Guns Jamming,Tents blowing in the wind, Equipment breaking down at in-opportune times.

You won't notice that the other side has these difficulties because they don't have the equipment the allies do or else they would be hurting/killing themselves un-intentionally too.
They did apparently have a missle go up, miss the target, and come back down on themselves.


Kind of reminded me about the time this jumped out of an airplane at about the same time a guy was starting his BBQ.

Well the guy who jumped out of the plane was having trouble with his parachute.

The guy who lit his BBQ had it explode with him next to it.

Well, They pass each other in mid-air and parachutist says to the other guy:
" Do you know anything about parachute's?"

The BBQ guy says: "No...Do you know anything about BBQ's?"

My point is anything can happen anytime...and it does when you are in a war.

Manure happens!

 

I am a mechanic on military aircraft, C-130s in particular, and will just say that if you where to campare how old these choppers are, and how many hours they have been flown, you would never go near anything that does not have 4 wheels on the ground at all times. I work on aircraft that are over 40 years old and have over 30,000 miles on them, think about that, at an avg of 100 mph, which is way low even for a Herc(130) that is over 3 million miles. 30,000 hours on a car, at an avg of only 30 mph is almost 1 million miles...aircraft are used A.....LOT. If you had A car with 1,000,000 miles on it, could you blame it if it broke? That is the exact problem with those 130s that crashed fighting the fires in Col. a few months ago..they were over 40 years old, over 30,000 hours on them, and the frames just gave out. They, and all the aircraft, choppers, whatnot, are designed to perform and to last, however, they all get pushed beyond any and all reasonable limits, and they fail, nothing we can do except replace them, which we are trying, but it is expensive.
Another reason for the choppers is that in the desert, turbine blades, air filters, they all get torn up by the constant sand, when our aircraft come back from the desert, they normally need to have massive engine work. C-130s and choppers have the same basic engine. what is called a turbo prop, the sand also tears the prop up. So much so that the new C-130J cannot be used for intra theatre operations yet because the blades are literally torn to pieces by the sand.
As for the friendly fire incedents, all I cansay is a possibility of 'battle fever', paranoia leading to bad descisions, or just really bad in-communication. Communication is a major problem on any front due to it that you do not have things set up how they are back at the base, you have greater equipment failures due to conditions, i.e. sand, hot, windy, etc. and this mixed with 'battle fever' (extra adrenaline) can lead to mistakes.

 

Mil1ion is very correct. Accidents are a part of war.

note: I am not referencing "you" as an individual, just giving a perspective for better understanding.

A wrong turn puts you in the line of fire.
Equipment malfunctions.
Wrong coordinates are given, and you end up calling in an airstrike on yourself.
Correct coordinates are given, but written down wrong (or misinterpreted), brings an airstrike on you.

Not to mention that you are scared, and anything approaching your perimeter is the enemy (this is reduced by conducting proper Challenge and Password). It's dark, mistakes happen...

Of course, as this group gets real-life experience in war, there should be far fewer incidents, but they are going to happen, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

And sadly, there are incidents like Asan Akbar... another fact of war, it does happen (ask almost anyone who served in Viet Nam)

But, you only hear about those when service men and women die or get seriously injured.

It happens to the other side as well.


Steve

 

all i can say from some sort of experience is this-

they at most point cant see 5 feet in front of them because of sand storms.... if i heard gun shots in my direction but couldnt see past my rifle sights, i doubt i would hit the right target.

im not ragging on anyone for shooting without identifying their target, i cant, especially since ive never been shot at like our soldiers are recieving.

 

I think that makes a lot of sense, something that I hadn't considered. You can train and practice all you want at home, but when you actually go into battle, the real thing, it can be something completely unexpected.

Thanks for the responses, you certainly answered a lot of questions. Those Herky-Birds are amazing planes; they're used all over the world, a lot of times for humanitarian purposes. It's great to know someone that keeps 'em flying! I had assumed that most of these helicopters were quite new (Apaches, Cobras), which is why I'm surprised they seem to crash so much. As for the problems in the desert, this is the same thing they ran into in 1979 when they tried to rescue the hostages in Iran, so I thought we would have solved that by now. As a civilian, you see all these billions of dollars spent on the most sophisticated technology and equipment, you just expect that our troops are worthy of nothing less than the very best. It's just embarrasing when it doesn't work the way that it's supposed to.

 

Well, I consider the money well spent, we have done in a matter or days, and weeks, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere what other countries could not do in months or sometimes years. But war does cost life, that is part of war. no matter how advanced you are or how much money you spend, it will happen, it stinks but it is a fact of life.

 

Great post 1956MarkII!

I'm really interested to see what the concensus is, especially given the amount of military and retired military personnel on this board.

My guess is that the answers so far are right, from what I understand, it was even more commonplace, it took the Allies almost 2 years to get there military operations molded into a well oiled machine. History did a great documentary on the preparations for D-Day and the catastrophic failure of one of the live fire training missions. The details were sealed for 50 years.

The difference is the media now gives you every little detail. I don't think any of this stuff would have been permitted to be broadcast or reported during WWII or even Vietnam.

On the other hand, the weapons at the disposal of the US military are so incredible, and so technologically advanced, that I wonder just how sure they can be of how they will work in a REAL combat situation? You can test all you want, but when it's REAL it's different. Ask Ford about the 6.0L Powerstroke.

I also wonder about the increased complexity and technology leading to a greater chance of both equipment failure and human error?

Good thread, I'm really hoping to learn something about this one.

Waxy

 

i'm wondering here how would a 7.3 diesel last in one of those "Dust Bowl" sand storms that they are currently having??? The air filtration systems on all or most of the turbine engines on the M1A1 tanks and on all helicopters must be unbelieveablly efficient or those engines would surely not function. I watch the helio's land and they make their own sandstorm ...and all that dust has too be sucked into those engines...does it not.....Also , I don't recall seeing any Tymar air filters on the intake side of any of the aircraft. So what are they using for air filtration????? Inquiring minds want to know.....fd

 

Not all of the choopers, most actually, have filter, a very few due...You must remember though that these motors do not have pistons like what we are used to..I am not a jet mech, I am an electrical and enviromental troop. electrical being self expanatory, enviromental being the pressurization and air condition, anti ice, heat, etc.. However, the ignition turns a turbine blade, well many of them, before and aft of the ignition, before compresses the incoming air, aft acts as, well I do not actually know that part, put the 'driveshaft' conecting all the turbines, attatches to the prop, that is what propels it....not quite that simple but....therfore not all the motors really need filters, the sand does not normally clog any injectors, or valves, it tears the turbine blades apart, it is amazing what a grain of sand or a pebble can due to a multimillion dollar engine.

 

Welcome back Waxy!....They may need you over in the oil fields to help put out those fires. Million needs more fire fighters for FTE.....of course it would be completely voluntary. you can standby at your keyboard with a water hose at the "ready". I just couldn't pass it up...forgive me ...for man does not live by threads alone. Fd

 

1956MarkII, let me offer you this perspective.

I'm going to uproot where you have been driving and have you drive in a area that you haven't been to before. I'm going to compound that by adding some other options.

1) You will be driving at full throttle.
2) Other people will be driving at full throttle that may or may not know where they are at.
3) You are being shot at.
4) Those who drive in the opposite direction, don't stay in their lane and may cross yours.
5) The weather will change at a moments notice from nice to horrible.
6) You must pick the correct exit every time in this new environment or you'll end up dead.
7) Your car has 500,000 miles on it and has been maintained, but..
8) Everybody just got their learners permit and newbies are being rotated in every day.

The #8 is not a slam of our military. But even things you do well in one enviroment take some adjusting to in a differant one. If you look at what they have moved and how far they have moved against a opposing force, they have done quite well.

When they build a bridge or a skyscraper, they estimate how many will die building it. Imagine doing it while everyone has a gun and is trying to prevent the enemy from killing one of them as the structure is built.

 

When I was in, I was assigned as a driver on a 5/4 ton truck (it was a Chevy, sorry guys...). It was my responsibility to check it each day from a check list (we called it PMCS). Over there, I assume (and I can only assume, as I missed Desert Storm by mere months) they have to check the vehicles several times a day. Also, there are mechanics a-plenty in the armed services. Those vehicles are constantly being checked and cleaned and repaired.

That doesn't mean they won't have problems, though, especially in the sand. But, I think our mechanics learned a lot back in Gulf War I, also. And though many of them are no longer in, the knowledge that they gained is sure to have been documented and shared with today's military mechanics.


Steve

 

P.S. most of the people over there almost 90% of all non-commanders/platoon leaders, have never seen combat. The military, especially the air force is alot younger than in the past, in the early 90s they gave just about everyone to get out with a check, well most people did..and they are hurting for higher up experianced people...one mistake they will not make again

 

yeah..I am now a Junior user, after only a week. imagine that
I have to much free time at work (yes I am talking about my job in the military.)