ENGINE SWAP FOR THE FUTURE
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: ROCKVILLE, CT.
ENGINE SWAP FOR THE FUTURE
First, this isn't something I plan on doing right now unless something catastrophic happens or I have more money than I know what to do with since the engine runs fine and no obvious problems are presenting.
I want to rebuild my 428... EVENTUALLY.
First. I had a 65 F100 that I changed a I6 300 out for a 390. This truck had a NP435 4 speed in it and I can't remember needing to change the bell housing for the swap. I remember the mechanic I bought the engine from told me the flywheel would work with the 390 and I did use it with zero problems for almost 8 years ( So, for all of you scratching your heads, chew on that for a bit ).
Someone here said that you can't swap a FE block for a I6 300. That only a direct swap will work for a 351?
Is this referring to an automatic transmission? If so, Are there any Ford sixes that will bolt up to a C-6 tranny? I can't imagine that Ford would not have some way to swap a FE out for a I6 ( ie a 6 block with the same bolt pattern as a FE for a C-6 ).
I haven't looked in awhile so I can't remember, but is the bell housing on a C-6 seperate or is it part of the cast for the main body?
I want to rebuild my 428... EVENTUALLY.
First. I had a 65 F100 that I changed a I6 300 out for a 390. This truck had a NP435 4 speed in it and I can't remember needing to change the bell housing for the swap. I remember the mechanic I bought the engine from told me the flywheel would work with the 390 and I did use it with zero problems for almost 8 years ( So, for all of you scratching your heads, chew on that for a bit ).
Someone here said that you can't swap a FE block for a I6 300. That only a direct swap will work for a 351?
Is this referring to an automatic transmission? If so, Are there any Ford sixes that will bolt up to a C-6 tranny? I can't imagine that Ford would not have some way to swap a FE out for a I6 ( ie a 6 block with the same bolt pattern as a FE for a C-6 ).
I haven't looked in awhile so I can't remember, but is the bell housing on a C-6 seperate or is it part of the cast for the main body?
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,520
Likes: 2,826
The FE bell pattern is different than the SBF/BB6 pattern used by the 240/300 (& late 289, 255, 302, 351w). Pictures here, a number of differences evident:
FordFE Forum Faqs
C6 transmissions have an integral bell. They are produced with the different bell patterns and so you can have an FE C6 and a 300 six C6, but you can't swap the two cases back and forth.
Your 300 to 390 swap would have required a bell swap. It is possible the flywheel would have interchanged, but I can't recall or find the details of that. There have been postings on that subject in the past.
The only multilple pattern engines I have heard of were some MEL blocks, and the 400 had an early casting that fit the SBF pattern instead of the 335/385.
Why did Ford have this mindless, needless, endless array of bell patterns?
List of Ford bellhousing patterns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know. There is no discussion of any particular bell pattern being weak. Some may not be large enough for the larger clutches and flywheels used on big blocks in trucks, but a little foresight could cure that.
The number of bell patterns for Ford is one of the top ten reasons people throw up their hands and build a Chevy.
FordFE Forum Faqs
C6 transmissions have an integral bell. They are produced with the different bell patterns and so you can have an FE C6 and a 300 six C6, but you can't swap the two cases back and forth.
Your 300 to 390 swap would have required a bell swap. It is possible the flywheel would have interchanged, but I can't recall or find the details of that. There have been postings on that subject in the past.
The only multilple pattern engines I have heard of were some MEL blocks, and the 400 had an early casting that fit the SBF pattern instead of the 335/385.
Why did Ford have this mindless, needless, endless array of bell patterns?
List of Ford bellhousing patterns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know. There is no discussion of any particular bell pattern being weak. Some may not be large enough for the larger clutches and flywheels used on big blocks in trucks, but a little foresight could cure that.
The number of bell patterns for Ford is one of the top ten reasons people throw up their hands and build a Chevy.
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: ROCKVILLE, CT.
BUMMER
Well I guess I need to stay with an FE when I go to rebuild the 428 or maybe find a 300 w/ a C-6 for sale to drop in it while I'm rebuilding. Plenty of time to find something. Thanks much, Todd.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
As for the flywheel, the 300 is internally balanced, and I've read that the FE's were internally balanced, so the only reason the flywheel wouldn't work for both, is if the bolt pattern in the end of the crank is different.
There are C6's made to fit the 300, I have one in my 80 F150 with the 300/C6 combo.
As pointed out, the FE and 300 do not share the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Even the starter for each has a different bolt pattern (300 = 2 bolt, FE = 3 bolt), though the starter is identical, aside from the nose. Add in the fact that manual and auto trans each use different starters, and there are 4 different nose cones just to cover the SBF and FE applications.
Oddly enough, the FE and 300 can use the same frame perches for the motor mounts. Any other engine family swap will require a frame perch swap as well.
BTW, if you think it's bad about the different engine families having different bellhousing patterns, look at the small I6. The 250 used the normal SBF pattern, but the rest (144, 177, and 200) used their own unique bellhousing pattern........ (note, I've heard that some of the late 70's/early 80's 200's came with the SBF pattern, but cannot confirm/deny).
It's no wonder the chebby crowd can't comprehend the details of a ford engine swap. All their stuff will bolt to the same flywheels and bellhousings.
There are C6's made to fit the 300, I have one in my 80 F150 with the 300/C6 combo.
As pointed out, the FE and 300 do not share the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Even the starter for each has a different bolt pattern (300 = 2 bolt, FE = 3 bolt), though the starter is identical, aside from the nose. Add in the fact that manual and auto trans each use different starters, and there are 4 different nose cones just to cover the SBF and FE applications.
Oddly enough, the FE and 300 can use the same frame perches for the motor mounts. Any other engine family swap will require a frame perch swap as well.
BTW, if you think it's bad about the different engine families having different bellhousing patterns, look at the small I6. The 250 used the normal SBF pattern, but the rest (144, 177, and 200) used their own unique bellhousing pattern........ (note, I've heard that some of the late 70's/early 80's 200's came with the SBF pattern, but cannot confirm/deny).
It's no wonder the chebby crowd can't comprehend the details of a ford engine swap. All their stuff will bolt to the same flywheels and bellhousings.
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: ROCKVILLE, CT.
Oh Boy
As for the flywheel, the 300 is internally balanced, and I've read that the FE's were internally balanced, so the only reason the flywheel wouldn't work for both, is if the bolt pattern in the end of the crank is different.
There are C6's made to fit the 300, I have one in my 80 F150 with the 300/C6 combo.
As pointed out, the FE and 300 do not share the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Even the starter for each has a different bolt pattern (300 = 2 bolt, FE = 3 bolt), though the starter is identical, aside from the nose. Add in the fact that manual and auto trans each use different starters, and there are 4 different nose cones just to cover the SBF and FE applications.
Oddly enough, the FE and 300 can use the same frame perches for the motor mounts. Any other engine family swap will require a frame perch swap as well.
BTW, if you think it's bad about the different engine families having different bellhousing patterns, look at the small I6. The 250 used the normal SBF pattern, but the rest (144, 177, and 200) used their own unique bellhousing pattern........ (note, I've heard that some of the late 70's/early 80's 200's came with the SBF pattern, but cannot confirm/deny).
It's no wonder the chebby crowd can't comprehend the details of a ford engine swap. All their stuff will bolt to the same flywheels and bellhousings.
There are C6's made to fit the 300, I have one in my 80 F150 with the 300/C6 combo.
As pointed out, the FE and 300 do not share the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Even the starter for each has a different bolt pattern (300 = 2 bolt, FE = 3 bolt), though the starter is identical, aside from the nose. Add in the fact that manual and auto trans each use different starters, and there are 4 different nose cones just to cover the SBF and FE applications.
Oddly enough, the FE and 300 can use the same frame perches for the motor mounts. Any other engine family swap will require a frame perch swap as well.
BTW, if you think it's bad about the different engine families having different bellhousing patterns, look at the small I6. The 250 used the normal SBF pattern, but the rest (144, 177, and 200) used their own unique bellhousing pattern........ (note, I've heard that some of the late 70's/early 80's 200's came with the SBF pattern, but cannot confirm/deny).
It's no wonder the chebby crowd can't comprehend the details of a ford engine swap. All their stuff will bolt to the same flywheels and bellhousings.
Henry must be spinning in his freakin' grave!!!! LOL
It's a funny thing. I can remember most of my rebuilding that 390 and putting it in, but I don't remember getting a different bell housing. The only thing I can think of is the mechanic that sold me the engine had one for a manual tranny and gave it to me.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
He must have also given you a flywheel. Looks like the 300 and 390 have different tooth counts, and OD measurements for a C6 flexplate, so I would assume a manual trans flywheel would also differ in the same manner......
300 = 164 teeth, 14.23 OD
390 = 184 teeth, 15.55 OD
This means a starter would not be able to engage the teeth of a 300 flywheel bolted to the back of a 390. They would be a bit over .5" too far out.
As for Henry spinning in his grave, remember, he insisted on parts being able to swap from one vehicle to an another vehicle of the same specs. He never said anything about parts swapping between different models......
300 = 164 teeth, 14.23 OD
390 = 184 teeth, 15.55 OD
This means a starter would not be able to engage the teeth of a 300 flywheel bolted to the back of a 390. They would be a bit over .5" too far out.
As for Henry spinning in his grave, remember, he insisted on parts being able to swap from one vehicle to an another vehicle of the same specs. He never said anything about parts swapping between different models......
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: ROCKVILLE, CT.
He must have also given you a flywheel. Looks like the 300 and 390 have different tooth counts, and OD measurements for a C6 flexplate, so I would assume a manual trans flywheel would also differ in the same manner......
300 = 164 teeth, 14.23 OD
390 = 184 teeth, 15.55 OD
This means a starter would not be able to engage the teeth of a 300 flywheel bolted to the back of a 390. They would be a bit over .5" too far out.
As for Henry spinning in his grave, remember, he insisted on parts being able to swap from one vehicle to an another vehicle of the same specs. He never said anything about parts swapping between different models......
300 = 164 teeth, 14.23 OD
390 = 184 teeth, 15.55 OD
This means a starter would not be able to engage the teeth of a 300 flywheel bolted to the back of a 390. They would be a bit over .5" too far out.
As for Henry spinning in his grave, remember, he insisted on parts being able to swap from one vehicle to an another vehicle of the same specs. He never said anything about parts swapping between different models......
Man I knew I wasgetting old but now I have CRS??? LOL!!
Trending Topics
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
LOL, I thought I was the only one suffering from CRS (Can't Remember...................ummmmmm Stuff).
I also suffer from OFS (Old Fart Syndrum). The doctors claim it's not OFS, but MS. I refuse to believe any doctor that still refers to their proffesion as a "Practice". I *might* believe one that has perfected medicine, though.......
I also suffer from OFS (Old Fart Syndrum). The doctors claim it's not OFS, but MS. I refuse to believe any doctor that still refers to their proffesion as a "Practice". I *might* believe one that has perfected medicine, though.......
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
Top 10 Fords at 2026 Carlisle Ford Nationals
Joe Kucinski
3 Best / 3 Worst Parts of Modern Ford Ownership
Brett Foote
10 Amazing Upgrades That Solve Common Ford Truck Owner Headaches
Pouria Savadkouei
Every 2026 Ford Engine Explained
Brett Foote
10 Ugly Ford Trucks That We Still Kinda Love
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Every Truck Owner NEEDS (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalyptic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 1
From: Axtell, TX
Not all FEs are internally balanced. The 410 and 428 are externally balanced and use a different flywheel with counterweights. Same harmonic balancer as the other FEs but different flywheels.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
I guess I should have clarified my statement, I had read that *most* FE's are internally balanced, but I am far from an FE "expert", by any stretch of the imagination. Want to learn, and reading as much as I can, but there's a lot of incorrect info floating around.......
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 1
From: Axtell, TX
Yes both (except 428SCJ) use the same crank. The 3.98" stroke crank is externally balanced. The SCJ has an extra counterweight on the crank to account for the extra weight of the LeMans rods. And yeah there is lots of misinfo out there... what's worse is that many books with or about FEs perpetuate the same mistakes.
To the OP. I'm a little confused. So you have a 390 currently and are looking to swap that out for a 300 while you build a 428? You're not going to try to turn that 390 into a 428 are you? Because 95% of the time it won't work. VERY few 390s can be bored .080 over and still have thick enough walls to provide reliable service. Different blocks for the two.
To the OP. I'm a little confused. So you have a 390 currently and are looking to swap that out for a 300 while you build a 428? You're not going to try to turn that 390 into a 428 are you? Because 95% of the time it won't work. VERY few 390s can be bored .080 over and still have thick enough walls to provide reliable service. Different blocks for the two.
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: ROCKVILLE, CT.
Yes both (except 428SCJ) use the same crank. The 3.98" stroke crank is externally balanced. The SCJ has an extra counterweight on the crank to account for the extra weight of the LeMans rods. And yeah there is lots of misinfo out there... what's worse is that many books with or about FEs perpetuate the same mistakes.
To the OP. I'm a little confused. So you have a 390 currently and are looking to swap that out for a 300 while you build a 428? You're not going to try to turn that 390 into a 428 are you? Because 95% of the time it won't work. VERY few 390s can be bored .080 over and still have thick enough walls to provide reliable service. Different blocks for the two.
To the OP. I'm a little confused. So you have a 390 currently and are looking to swap that out for a 300 while you build a 428? You're not going to try to turn that 390 into a 428 are you? Because 95% of the time it won't work. VERY few 390s can be bored .080 over and still have thick enough walls to provide reliable service. Different blocks for the two.
I have a 428 according to paperwork. Won't really know until I tear it down. To be honest the 390 I had in my 65 had more stones than this one.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Mister_King
Ford Inline Six, 200, 250, 4.9L / 300
4
Mar 3, 2015 10:15 PM
hopsmith
1961 - 1966 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
15
Nov 16, 2010 08:12 PM
Billy4416
1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
13
Jul 20, 2009 11:57 AM
