D3VE heads not worth more than 400 - 450hp?

this is my first 460 build and i have spent countless hours researching what i wanted(between this site and 460ford.com along with others). went to a machine/engine building shop yesterday told the guy my goals of a mud/pulling truck with street ability on pump gas, lots of low torque. he told me that the stock heads i have (i planned on doing my own port work following reincarnation) that they are not good to achieve 500hp and TQ without close to 1k spent and would be better off with aluminum heads for the extra $500.

so my question is i want a close to 500hp engine with a min of 500tq. whats the cheapest/best way to get there? my plan was .030 over with a 4.3 stroke crank used with stock heads (because of budget) machine shop told me not possible unless i went with aluminum heads. thats just more than i wanted to spend right now.

would i be better off leaving stock crank and just replace rods and pistons along with aluminum heads?

sorry for the long post. just trying to get away with spending the least and getting the most. any other opinions or options to achieve my goals are greatly appreciated. thank you in advance

 

anyone? i guess i just need some help in what direction to go. i am only looking to spend around $3000 on this build right now.

for that kind of money what combination will offer me the most hp but more importantly low end tq?

1) bore .030 over with 4.3 stroke crank with c/r around 9.5 with d3ve heads stock valves but ported to the best of my ability. funds dont allow for aluminum heads at this time but would be built to support them in the future

or

2) .030 over with stock crank c/r around 10/1 and spend the money on aluminum heads.

second build would be final and i just dont want to be disappointed if i cant turn my tractor tires in the mud pit. the first build i would upgrade to the aluminum heads when money permits. again dont want to be unhappy with that combo as it is before i can afford the new heads.

i really dont know anything other than things i have read so any opinion would be great! thanks in advance

 

also to help out a bit. the only part i currently have is a nice set of fender exit l&l headers. so with that being said its really a open book as to what parts you guys can suggest. it will be a streetable truck with c6 and a low stall torque converter in case i ever come across some rocks while i am offroad. i also realize my budget price will not be close by the time its done and running in the truck i just want to keep it cheap

 

This is general info. It has been criticized by at least one fellow who actually runs a built 385 series engine, but it's at least something to give you a basic idea:

460 Horsepower Chart (revised 1/24/09) - 460 Ford Forum

 

thank you for the reply and also the link. i have studied that chart numerous times and i think that is why i was in shock when the builder told me my goal of 475-500 hp was not reality without close to 1k of work done to the heads. and that is even with doing the porting myself.

i guess i just wanted to know if leaving the heads and valves stock and just porting them to my max ability if it would severely choke the engine to the point i would be better off just spending the money on the heads and leaving the stroke stock?

thanks for your help so far

 

OOops, see by your first thread you already went there... Nothing cheap when you are talking 500 horse.

I would do the stroker etc and have the short block the way you want it. It will be restricted by the heads, but you'll still have tons of low end, and can swap the heads after a few more bank jobs. I see in your first post the shop doesn't like that idea, maybe due to compression ratio?

 

thank you for the reassurance that is the route i was thinking seems how it is easier to just bolt on new heads in the truck when money permits instead of a complete tare down.
i am having a hard time finding others that have done this 520 with stock heads so i can get an estimate on what to expect for numbers keeping in mind my personal ability to do a good port job (i understand i will be no where near max potential of the heads)

waiting for monsterbaby to chime in because it seems like he has given the best advice in past posts and value his opinion strongly

 

The machine shop is partially correct. You CAN get 500+hp out of stock heads either the D3 or the early heads BUT they do take work. (several guys have gotten north of 700+ with them) but it's not cheap.

Your going to need bigger valves, and then of coarse the work of cutting the new valve size in, and installed hardened seats. Machine for screw in studs and guideplates and the porting work.

This is one of those tuff areas tho.

First you mentioned pulling truck. Well alum heads will put you into the unlimited class almost automatically almost everywhere. And it takes serious money to play with those guys, trust me.

Also I like the idea of building the stroker with iron heads and replace as money allows BUT it does limit your choices on the alum heads due to valve angles etc. I.E. if you decide to go with say Kaase's P51 heads or the FRPP SCJ-B heads you will either need to cut new valve reliefs in the pistons or replace the pistons.

So you need to really sit down and look at your final goals. If it was me and I had a final goal of a fairly radical engine but not the money right now. I would just build a decent 460 out of it. Bore .030 new pistons. rebuild the rods. Do the port work on the heads like oyu planned following Scott's web site. Keep compression around 9.5:1 and a rowdy but streetable cam, manifold and carb to match. THEN start saving your pennies and build a new motor using something like a A460 block as your base starting point and go from there.

 

What's the worst case if you build a stroker with close to stock heads? I could be wrong, but it seems like you'd have a motor with major torque at low rpm but it'd probably be out of breath by 4500 rpm, depending on the cam. So you'll have a diesel powerband for a while, is that bad? Then when you get the heads you want the thing will really come alive. The only advise I'll add is to make sure you have your final plan figured out, know what heads you'll end up with and build to that. Don't spend much on your iron heads during the initial build, get the shortblock right.

 

biggest problem is some of the heads have revised valve angles so the pistons for them are different then the stock iron heads.

 

sorry for taking so long to reply, was on vacation so i have been thinking quite a bit about this.

how much do the valves really stick down into the chamber? what i am thinking is if i use the stock heads for right now with a lower compression ratio say 9/1 because the stock heads i am guessing to be be around 95cc (havent cleaned them up to cc them yet) now when i replace just the heads with aluminum and they are 75cc that should raise my cr to about 10/1

so if i build my stroker now with the right pistons (ones with the right valve angle to run say p51's) is it possible to run them with the stock heads if i would just lower the compression? or would i even have to lower the cr at all?

my goals are not very extreme. around 500hp but at least 500tq Its just a weekend play mud truck that may pull or mud drag once a year when the local firemans picnic has them.
thanks for the help this far. brought up some points i hadnt considered

 

No you can't run stock heads on P51 pistons. they will hit. (even stock pistons have valve reliefs now add anything for a cam and you really have issues)

BUT with that said. the TFS street heads have standard valve angles and will support 500hp out of the box and more with some port work. So IF you want to build it now and run the iron heads just remember your pretty much going to limit your head choices for later but there are still some great offerings that will work. (yes that is what I would do, I really like the TFS street heads)

I was mainly putting it out for you to think on while planning cause NOW is the time to think long and hard about future plans.

BTW you CAN cut valve reliefs later. Jon even rents the tools on his website to do it.

 

i just want a very reliable engine that makes good power without high rpms.

the machine shop i talked to preferred the edelbrock heads b/c they oder them blank (not sure what ones) and then set them up per engine. told me around $1500 for the heads set up with valves. i cannot find them anywhere this cheap. is there an advantage to the tfs street heads? i was leaning twords them but if the price is right i might just have to go with the edelbrocks.

also is there a huge advantage to going to the bigger 2.19/1.76 valves in the d3 heads? i might just go this route now b/c i could then use these d3's in a future daily driver truck build i am planning

 

i just want a very reliable engine that makes good power without high rpms.

the machine shop i talked to preferred the edelbrock heads b/c they oder them blank (not sure what ones) and then set them up per engine. told me around $1500 for the heads set up with valves. i cannot find them anywhere this cheap. is there an advantage to the tfs street heads? i was leaning twords them but if the price is right i might just have to go with the edelbrocks.

also is there a huge advantage to going to the bigger 2.19/1.76 valves in the d3 heads? i might just go this route now b/c i could then use these d3's in a future daily driver truck build i am planning

 

edelbrocks are fair but they are basically nothing more then alum versions of the old D0VE heads. Nothing special and don't flow any better then teh stock iron heads you have.

get your hands on a set of tfs and a set of edelbrocks and you will see the difference just in the casting if nothing else.

I run edelbrock heads on my FE in my galaxie and they work but they are old school and haven't been revised in decades.