I don't usually like doing the cut and paste thing, but I'm going to make an exception in this case.

This is a really long article, but I think it has a lot of merit. IMHO, it presents how the world feels for the most part, I know it certainly captures a lot of how I feel about it. It's worth a read, if for nothing else to be aware of the opinion of others, regardless of whether you agree with them.

It all goes back to "ask me to do it, and I'll do it gladly, order me to do it, and I'll refuse".

I tried to post the entire article, put it is too long, so I'll just provide the link for anyone who's interested.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?vts=031720030645

ON EDIT: Yes, this is a Newsweek story reprinted on MSNBC.

Waxy

 

HI-
Wow. I see what your saying. And those MSNBC articles are usually too liberal for me. But wait, that was from a Newsweek story (right?)

Well, one things for SURE. I certaninly feel safer in the new Fatherland- er, oh sorry I mean Homeland

 

I read the article, and while I agree with some of the points, I still have one big question. The countries that don't support us now have that right. The question is, will they expect us to helkp them when they need it or will they call France or Russia? Heck, France and Russia couldn't survive without our aid, not to mention the rest of the 3rd world countries out there.

 

One thing I will agree with you on Waxy, it IS too long!

I tried reading enough to get the gist, but It reminds me of when my parents would scold me for not cleaning my ears by lecturing me for 30 minutes on the value of discipline, etc, etc.

I have purposefully deviated from that with my involvement with others. If I need to tell someone something, they had better listen the first few seconds, cause after that I'm finished.

The article referred to a "turning point", which I agree we have reached, but not as defined by the author. The turning point we reached, was the addition of SUICIDE to the description of terrorists.

While a person is able to be pursuaded to do or not do an action because he fears for his life, he is controllable. When he is willing to die for his actions, he is not. So the ONLY solution to this type of problem is to pull it up by the roots.

Until we took action against Afghanistan's bad guys, we had been only mowing over the weeds with our lawn mower. Unfortunately, now it is time to use the tiller and grind up the roots and destroy them.

I agree America is partly to blame for the situation. Not the governemnt, but the people. We have reduced the sancity of human life to that of dogs and cats. We have destroyed the innocence of children by teaching them the facts of life before they are able to truly grasp the meaning of life. We have given children decision authority way too early. The list goes on.

I am a compassionate person. Over the years I have donated thousands of dollars to help others, both here and abroad. But I firmly believe that a person does not deserve to have that which he is unwilling to defend.

As I have said before, I am a Vietnam Veteran. I thought what I did was right then, and I have not changed my mind.

I appreciate knowing the other side of an issue. I would not like to have an opinion without a cause.

 

Winfordr,
Just wanted to say Thank You for your service to Our Country. Where would we be without people like you.

 

good read waxy. a few things i have noticed....

times change and nothing stays the same, there is alot of uncertainty in the world right now because everyone is full of anxiety about the future. this anxiety creates tension and stress which is leading to anger, hatred, etc.

the countries that are protesting us, most of them don't even know what they are protesting about. more than half the people in the US probably don't have their facts straight or even know what is going on in the world, and we are supposedly one of the more educated societies. then you see people protesting in the middle east and going nuts with anti american sentiments... they have no idea what they are protesting or why they are protesting, because they have no education... still their governments brainwash them to hate the US... why? alot of it is all due to jealousy, greed, self interest etc. these negative values are the core of whats going on in the world today. the US is asserting greed and self interest (not disagreeing with this approach at all) and other countries become jealous and want a part of it. for 60 years or even more, our allies have been getting a piece of the pie and reaping our spoils, and all of a sudden they see themselves being cut off. imagine if we took away everyone's military and economic aid overnight. everyone would be anti american because they had nothing to gain from us anymore. they see our government taking a unilateral approach and they get pissed off because they aren't along for the ride anymore.

its as simple as a little kid wanting to stay up and watch TV past his bedtime, because he is spoiled and generally gets what he wants. when his parents make him go to bed, he get's pissed off and cries and complains and pouts and causes a fuss until he gets what he wants. think of all the lesser countries in the world and how we have spoiled them in the past century, and all of a sudden we are off on our own doing our own thing. thats what i see when i look at the situation.

sorry this is poorly written i didn't have alot of time. looking forward to reading more responses on this.....

 

yeah, i second that. thank you winford. i admire your resolve and you WERE right.



i didnt read the article cuz honestly...i dont care. im sure it was full of the same crap that all anti-american op-eds or articles have in them and im sick of hearing it. i dont care what these people have to say, i support our president, our soldiers AND my country. you may as well lump me in with the "arrogant" crowd since i stand firm in my beliefs and wont let anybody put me down.

there is a REASON America has the "unpresidented" power we have, we dont listen to junk like that article. we work hard at being the best we can be and fight for what we believe is right. period. imagine a world without America and tell me you'd like to live there. without America, dozens of other countries wouldnt exist. by paying taxes, in effect we (the people of America) help thousands if not millions of people survive WORLDWIDE and yet we are somehow seen as arrogant and not as charitable. we are hated no matter what we do.

the rest of the world is afraid of america? if thats the case then why do they come here or dream of doing so? all of this "america is too powerful" crap is nothing but a form of class envy. people who have not, always hate those that have what they desire.

 

icelander, if you didn't read the article, then you really have no business commenting on it. Your reply to the article is off base.

Perhaps you should remember,

"Read not to condemn but to consider"

Waxy

 

ok,ok, curiosity got the best of me and i read/scanned the artice and would like to revise my former post.

i forgot to add anti-bush to the sentence that contained the words "anti-American". it was so obvious that writer was anti-bush and anti-bush administration which is usually the case in such articles. i knew i didnt need to read it.


one thing that did stand out was in part 3 where he said "[america] never showing weakness" why the hell would we show weakness? that sounds (suspiciously) like the feminist agenda . you know, the whole " men are too powerful and should show sone weakness and cry more" crap.




remember these words..............."to secure peace is to prepare for war".

 

Okay here is the plan.

icelander for president

 

perhaps i and many other americans HAVE Read not to condemn but to consider for too long and we're sick of it. perhaps we dont need or want to read another article telling us we're horrible baby killing people when we know we arent. perhaps many of us support or president and we're sick hearing that he's an idiot or whatever rediculous argument those that oppose him or us come up with. perhaps many of us couldnt care less about world opinion because we're hated no matter what we do and have almost become insensitive BECAUSE of it.


i KNEW i didnt need to read that article and after reading it my notion was confermed. you can have all the " i love America....but" junk in an article you want but people will see through it. thats exactly what that article was. the author was basically covering his *** incase there was a backlash. much like some of the hollwood folks (ie: the dixie chicks) have tried to retract their anti-war statements so as not to hurt their career.


SPEAK OUT against the war all you want but be ready and stand by what you said when the other side mounts its own campaine against you.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way icelander, I think you've presented an extreme view, and not the view presented in the article. That being said, I'm not here to change your mind, and you're not here to have your mind changed.

To everyone else considering reading the article:

I think if you can get past your individual Republican/Democrat or Bush/Clinton leanings, temporarily at least, there is some value in the article. Separate the article from the Iraq issue if you have strong feelings on it, and look at it on a larger scale. Try to get past the political overtones to the root points being made about US foreign policy. There is value in knowing what others think of you and why they think it. There is value in keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer.

For the record, the article doesn't condemn the US, it is written more as an outline of where have we been and where are we headed. It defines some of the problems that are now facing the US, (some never before dealt with) how they've been dealt with in the past, and outlines a couple of schools of thought on how to deal with these problems. It's more of an article on the philosophy of foreign policy than on the US foreign policy itself. At least that's what I got out of it (maybe by choice).

Waxy

 

This is sad but true. However, there are others out there that are every bit as informed as yourself, if not more so. It's easy to condemn anyone that doesn't agree with you as being "uneducated" or "brain washed", but you can't condemn them all as being fools. They aren't.

Quote:

alot of it is all due to jealousy, greed, self interest etc. these negative values are the core of whats going on in the world today. the US is asserting greed and self interest (not disagreeing with this approach at all) and other countries become jealous and want a part of it. for 60 years or even more, our allies have been getting a piece of the pie and reaping our spoils, and all of a sudden they see themselves being cut off. imagine if we took away everyone's military and economic aid overnight. everyone would be anti american because they had nothing to gain from us anymore. they see our government taking a unilateral approach and they get pissed off because they aren't along for the ride anymore.

I think this is what the author was getting at, but perhaps I give him too much credit.

Having these allies reap the rewards of US success keeps the US a success. Like Bush said, you're either with us or against us, it's far better for the US to have the world with us. If that means throwing countries a bone, treating them with respect, and listening to what they have to say, then it's worth it.

Up until now, the US has been uncontested, and largely supported, by the rest of the world. They've kept it that way by sharing the pie, and treating even the smallest countries with with respect.

The old "do unto others" saying rings true in foreign policy as well. It's not in the US's best interest to pull aid from other countries. The better the economy of these countries, and the more their governments reflect the US, the stronger the US becomes.

If the US chooses to act unilaterally (not just in the case of Iraq, but in all aspects of international trade and actions), they risk the growth of a rising tide of anti-american sentiment. That eventually will lead to the "downfall" of the American empire. Seems impossible, but so did the decline of the Roman and British empires.

This is a really poor summary of the article, and undoubtedly contains some of my bias, so I'd suggest you read it yourself and form your own opinion.

Waxy

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waxy
I'm sorry you feel that way icelander, I think you've presented an extreme view, and not the view presented in the article. That being said, I'm not here to change your mind, and you're not here to have your mind changed.



funny you see me as extreme especially since im an independant. or could it be that simply because i disagree with you and side with my president that you find my views extreme? how can the view presented in the article not be seen as a slam against the bush administration? and since we all know your view on OUR war, how can you pretend to be objective?

To everyone else considering reading the article: its crap, dont bother.

"I think if you can get past your individual Republican/Democrat or Bush/Clinton leanings, temporarily at least, there is some value in the article. Separate the article from the Iraq issue if you have strong feelings on it, and look at it on a larger scale. Try to get past the political overtones to the root points being made about US foreign policy. There is value in knowing what others think of you and why they think it. There is value in keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer."

why should anyone think outside their party lines? god forbid. we are all sheep and cant think for ourselves. " get past the political overtones"? really? is that because they arent "pro-peace"? they(US foreign policy) are about an America that was sucker-punched and now we're going after the suckers? its funny/sickening to me that the rest of the world thinks or says they wouldnt declare war on anyone that attacked them and we wouldnt help. if Calgary was hit waxy, would you say what you are now and would your goverment not ask us for help?

"For the record, the article doesn't condemn the US, it is written more as an outline of where have we been and where are we headed. It defines some of the problems that are now facing the US, (some never before dealt with) how they've been dealt with in the past, and outlines a couple of schools of thought on how to deal with these problems. It's more of an article on the philosophy of foreign policy than on the US foreign policy itself. At least that's what I got out of it (maybe by choice)."


first, who is "we", you live in Canada. i thought this was an exclusively US problem? the "some never dealt with" quote puts this whole thing in perspective. youre right, we have never been attacked and this war, the war on terrorism, is a result. we didnt start this war. Pres. Bush is presiding over a war that will indeed change the face of the globe. the world changed sept. 11th and will continue to change. philosophy is great but action produces results.

 

I would give my opionion, but it seems like I cant get the full truth from any source (tv. papers, internet). I sometimes feel that we are all "kept in the dark about a lot of stuff, and that the media trys to work our emotions up so we can justfy whatever may be taking place.

Dont get me wrong, I don't hate America, nor do I hate any other nations, I just wish I could get the full truth, then I can make a rational decision on my point of view.

*wondering if it will ever end*

G Williamson
www.williamsondesign.com