Here are a few of my thoughts on the subject. And I apologige that this is my first post - and a long one at that.............

After checking out this site, I thought it might be wise to join considering I am about to embark on a full frame-off restomod of a 1969 F-100 that my wife's dad bought new in 1969. I have learned a lot from reading what a lot of you have written here - in spite of conflicting opinions............

I have seen a lot of discussion on "who cares about 1-2 MPG difference?"
Here's my take on the subject and I welcome any input or feedback as I am just beginning to put the plan together for the F-100. I already have a '67 Fairlane on the waiting list as the next project. I'm thinking 390 that'll get sub 10-second quarter mile times and 22+ MPG on the highway. AM I crazy?

Some years back I ran across a book called "Performance with Economy". It was a great book and it taught me a lot. Who said you can't learn from reading? Many thanks to Smokey Yunuck and other contributors. If you haven't seen it, it's a good read.

So my "project" at the time was a 1973 Mach I with a 351C - bone stock. I had blown the engine (took out everything from the intake manifold down) within two weeks of buying the car and had to sell my motorcycle in order to raise the funds to build a new engine for her. After reading the book, I became very aware that you don't have to sacrifice mileage for power. In fact, if you do things a certain way, you can get both (the best of both worlds) for the same price. The dyno tests proved it - 318 HP at the rear wheels and 21-22 MPG. Yes - at the same time, but it took some doing.

So here's my reasoning:

We are all likely to be building or re-building an engine for our project. We have a lot of choices to make in the process.

Choosing the right carb = 1mpg
Choosing the right cam = 1mpg
chosing the right intake manifold = 1 mpg
chosing the right headers & exhaust system - 1 mpg
chosing the right ignition system = 1 mpg
chosing to use or not use a canopy = 1 mpg
chosing to use an electric fan and other elec mods = 1 mpg
other options = 1 mpg

that's a total of 8 mpg.

Here's the deal - we were going to buy these parts anyway. Why not coordinate them to get the best of both worlds?

What's 8 MPG add up to anyway?

Well, if you currently get 12 MPG and drive 20,000 miles per year, at $3.50/gallon, that's $5,833.33 in Gasoline alone

If you get 20 MPG and drive the same 20,000 miles per year, at $3.50/gallon, that's $3,500 (a savings of $2,333.33 per year). How many mods can you make for $2,333 per year? Or think about this - that's $23,333 for 10 years. Can you say "OUCH!"? Holy Moly! That's a lot of mods. My 1985 F-150 4x4 had 255,000 miles on it when I traded her. I don't even want to think about the lost mileage.

Think about it......You're going to buy all the cool parts anyway - why not make a plan and coordinate it into an engine package that is going to smoke your competition and get great mileage at the same time?

OK - I didn't get into the rear end ratio and the transmission options, but just touched on the tip of the iceburg. There are 1000 other options out there, including aerodynamics, kevlar belts for automatic transmissions, clutch options and more that I didn't take into consideration.

For my project (the '69 F-100), she'll be a daily driver and a showcase of my 35+ years of experience. OK, you figured it out. I'm an old fart - old-school at heart, but open to modern technology. I don't want to mess with constantly adjusting dwell or points gap and I don't want to change my spark plugs every 12,000 miles. My baby will be carrying a 1700-pound pop-up camper and hauling a 1200-pound boat on a trailer behind for much of the summer. Otherwise, she'll be getting me to and from work (100 miles per day round trip) for the next few years or until I win the lottery.

So if any of you have experience with this, I would appreciate the feedback/input. I have built a 289. a 302, a 428 SCJ and a 351C, but never a 360 and never done a truck before. So this is all a little new to me. I'm thinking that the truck will be mostly on the street as a daily driver and run relatively low RPMs for the most part. I am planning on adding a Hayden oil cooler and tranny cooler for the C6. I am also researching water injection as it is said to improve both economy and power. That'll come in handy while hauling a camper and boat up the hills in western Washington.

I'll plan on documenting and photographing the resto project, but, as I said, I'm just getting started and trying to get all my ducks in a circle. I've looked at crate engine packages, but at $8,500 that doesn't seem reasonable. Surely you guys have knowledge and experience that will help me.

Thanks, in advance, for the help.

Think Pink!

 

I enjoyed reading your post. I think that you are on the right path by consolidating fuel economy and performance in the same package. I myself am new to these boards so I cannot guide you much on your project goals. I know from reading the other member's posts that you should get some knowledgeable and reliable feedback regarding your questions. I look forward to seeing your pictures and reading about your progress. Good luck in your endeavor.

 

Thanks for your comments. I figured there are a lot of guys here who have a lot more experience than me, so the feedback will be helpful. I know some guys just strap on a Holley 850 and straight pipes and it sounds good, so it must be more powerful, right?
LOL!
Nowadays we have technology and the internet, and a lot more. Let's see what we can do with it.

On my '73 Mach I I had a Mallory dual point distributor, a MSD 5, Accell super coil and wires, Headman headers, free-flow crossover exhaust (custom-fit) a Crower cam, heads built by a friend (ported exhaust to match the headers) and a few other budget-minded options (Edelbrock aluminum intake manifold), played with different carbs before settling on a 650 CFM.
I started with a Holley 750 - big mistake, went to a Carter 600 and later found the right balance. The Carter went dry on long high-speed corners.
My ground clearance was exactly the height of a pack of Marlboro hard pack cigs standing on their side (about 3") and she cornered like a cat in sneakers with GR 60's on all four corners. I never did like the front-end high look and kept her balances even though the front end was quite heavy. I originally thought I should lighten the front end with a fiberglass hood and whatever else I could to get rid of 150 pounds. The rear end was light, so I kept two tool boxes back there year-round.

Still, I have a lot to learn, so I am looking forward to experienced replies.

Thanks for your input.

 

great post, and great ideas!
small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas!

my problem is i do not think you are going to get that kind of fuel economy out of these trucks. the most you will see with all the right equipment and all the right conditions is 18mpg. mine was getting 15-16 on the drive from seattle to orlando.
keep in mind your mathematics are for a truck that gets lifted by a chinook helicopter from your driveway and then placed onto the highway for it to always be getting that mileage.
you have to drive around town in order to get to the highway. and that fuel economy is much less than half those numbers! its like when people post a classified ad and say that it has 250k highway miles....
i bought a 6 cylinder 5 speed ranger for 2700 bucks for a daily driver, and it was one of the smartest things i did.
15-18 around town, and 24 on the highway.
now i dont care what my fuel economy on the f100 is.... its all about smiles per gallon, and when the time comes for a horsepower upgrade my mpg will probably drop, but i dont care.

 

What is your cost/return curve? You can spend and spend and spend and spend, and mod and mod and mod and mod...but it all comes down to overcoming the original product engineering, or not. All the stuff you mention will make a difference and you have the experience to prove it. Best combo I've ever come up with for a workhorse/dailydriver/road machine is the Big 6 and a manual or auto overdrive tranny. Our trucks are heavy, un-aerodynamic bricks. My in-town mileage goal with any old bumpsides is 15 mpg, with a carbed or F-injected six, and maybe 18 down the highway...I've achieved both with a stock 68 F100 farm truck and a 90 F150 with the E40D auto tranny.
With that said, I just sold a 93 Dakota club cab LE 4X4 that was rode hard and put away wet every day. It had multi-port fuel injection, a very tired 318 V-8 and a 4-speed auto overdrive tranny and 3.53 gearing in the rear. It su**ed in town...best I ever got was 12-13 mpg pulling that beast around in stop-n-go driving. But on the highway I could get 19-20 mpg all day long in OD with the little V-8 turning at 1700 to 1800 rpm.
I'm gonna drive my tired old 360 in my current project (69 F250) until it craters and then look for a big six with OD auto and lower rear gears...that should push the beast to 15 mpg in town and 18 down the road. Also considering a small in-line diesel that I can run on home-made french-fry go juice at speed or reg diesel fuel. I'd love to see someone investigate a dual power plant option for these old trucks, small internal combustion powerplant augmented by an electric motor & drive option...plenty of room in the bed for fuel cells or battery banks. Run the electric drive around town and switch to fuel-injected traditional engine once on the road. I probably won't live long enough to see that, but maybe someone younger can do the leg work and experimentation. If the guys as Tesla motors can retrofit old 60s muscle cars with electric power, why can't someone come up with a dual power option for classic trucks?
Sorry for the long post...it's early and I'm juiced on java beans.

 

There is a lot of aerodynamic advantage to a Mustang, even one of the Clydesdale Mustangs.
My F250 with a torque build 360 gets 12 empty, 7.5 pulling on the highway. I am getting around the mileage issue by going to a diesel and 5speed. Much cheaper than the mods to the FE, and in the end you have more power available while getting great mileage. The truck this engine came from was a lifted 4x4 with 35s and 4.10 gears, that turned in 13mpg towing a 24' enclosed trailer. I figure with my 2wd and 3.73 gears, I should be able to hit lower 20s as-is empty, and mid teens loaded. If I can double my mileage, then I will be thrilled and will start driving it more. I've only put 10k on it since I built the engine nearly three years ago.
I have a plan on the shelf for a diesel electric hybrid full size SUV based off a 67-72 crew cab. With a 50kw generator up front, and an electric drive under the front seats, with a decently sized battery pack, it should be capable of touching 30mpg at 65mph. The electric car crowd hates this as I am "only" getting 35mpg, but in reality I am doubling the mileage of this type of vehicle so it's way better than there 10% gains on a little car.

 

details and eye candy, please, mr. supermod...

 

I've often wondered if they'll offer a propane or natural gas option to the hybrids that are already coming off the assembly line. I had never really considered a diesel electric although I work in ship design and am also a train buff and both of them use diesel electrics. I just wonder what size diesel would be best for that kind of application. I would think you'd only need about 50 HP to do the trick.

 

Part of the reason for my post was to get feedback from some of you guys. I'm new to the forum - not new to building engines. Back in the day of the '69 SCJ and my own 351C, mileage really wasn't that much of an issue. Today it is - with a potential savings of $2333 per year in gas alone or $23,000 or more in 10 years, I'm thinking about it a lot.

There's not much I know of to do with the block, but between pistons (compression ratio), intake manifolds, carbs or FI, ignition systems, cam designs, rear end ratios and tire diameter, and exhaust systems, there are probably more than 1000 combinations. I just found out about this program called Desktop Dyno and will be looking into that in the next few weeks. I don't want to lower the vehicle or chop it. Obviously that would impact the aerodynamics, but I want it to be a daily driver as well as haul a camper some weekends and/or tow a small fishing boat.

As I also said earlier, I'm just starting to put a plan together, so everything has to be somewhat organized before I start doing the power train. The body & interior are the easy part. Relocate the fuel tank between the frame rails, update the dash, add a split seat with console, insulate everything .....easy

Part of my original thinking was whether or not to turn the stock 360 into a 390. The power happy side of me says "yeah, do it", but the conservative side says to build a really strong 360 and if I'm wanting the power that badly, I could always add NOS just for the fun of it. Again - the conservative side says not to go that route, but leave it open as an option later.

So if I can run the power train at 45-65 MPH with 'reasonable' efficiency, I will have accomp[lished my goal. Also stated in the original post is that I'm going to be buying all new parts anyway. I'll need a new cam, lifters, completely rebuild the heads, add tuned headers and exhaust system, new carb (or throttle body), intake manifold, pistons and the rest of the normal rebuild.

What I am finding challenging is to get all the right parts to be a concerted effort in order to get power, torque, efficiency, and make it as economical as possible.

I'm not building a dragster, so I don't need a cam that runs from 2500 to 10000 RPMs. I also don't need a short collector. It'll probably be better to leave the intake ports alone and grind/smooth the exhaust ports to match the headers. So which headers to use? I've heard that some headers have to be bent or replace the starter to get clearance between headers and the starter. Man - just another complication.

One thing I know almost nothing about is tire/wheel combinations. I usually just go with what I think looks good. How much impact does the tread pattern make or the total weight? Oh man - I feel a headache coming on. This is a lot to think about. OK - one thing at a time. I don't have any deadline and this isn't going to be a television show with all that drama - just one guy rebuilding his wife's old truck - old school, but better.

Anyone here ever mess with water injection systems?

 

Details on the diesel electric?
It's basically an electric vehicle with an onboard generator. I don't have the time, space or resources to build it just yet but I'm hoping that changes before too long.
Basic plan is a four cylinder turbocharged diesel rated at about 60hp mounted crossways just behind the radiator, with a 50kw alternator between it and the firewall, driven by a large poly-vee belt similar to how a skid steer is set up. An electric motor and two speed planetary gearbox will be mounted about where the transmission would normally be. The alternator charges the batteries through a rectifier and charge controller which also varies the engine speed to keep the batteries topped up, running it from idle through top governed speed, but will typically keep it at the peak torque rpm for the best fuel consumption. A high axle ratio will take advantage of the motor's torque. Batteries will be in boxes inside the frame down both sides. The diesel will have a couple parasitic loads, like power steering heat and possibly a/c, but the vehicle will still be capable of operating in a sort of golf-cart mode for about 5-10miles, depending on road conditions.
Based on drag calculations and brake specific fuel consumption numbers for a Kubota diesel, it should be able to maintain 70mph at ~26mpg, and 65 at ~30mpg. Higher speeds may be available for short distances until the batteries are depleted, but then a slower speed would be required for a time while the system catches up.
This will be about a $35k build, so again not something I can do right now.

 

Sounds like a very interesting project. Some years back I heard a story about a backyard mechanic in Seattle who built the world's fastest electric hydroplane. I don't know if anyone here knows what they are, but they are BIG, fast boats. The story goes something like this..........the guy wanted to set the record so he built this mad machine in his garage, went out and set the record - which stands to this day. The professors and students at the University of Washington, with all thie $ and engineers and computers can't beat him & he was just one little guy, on a budget, doing what he loved. I laugh everytime I hear a story like this. Some regular Joe builds something that others with 500 times the resources can't beat. Gotta love it!

 

I know - they have the ballistic coefficient of a rail car - LOL!
I still have to wonder about cam design, carb & intake manifold, rear end ratio & tire diameter, ignition (MSD), & exhaust system.

Funny you would mention Chinook helicopters. I used to repel out of them back in the mid '70's in California.

Like I said in the beginning - I need to buy a lot of new parts anyway. I'm just trying to figure out which ones will work together the best. I've heard good things about using electric fans and even electric drive on the water pump. I'm looking into water injection and am learning new things every day. If 18-20 MPG is the best I can do then that's just the way it is. But I still need to figure out which carb, intake manifold, headers & ignition to use. I guess it's all about 'efficiency' which includes the engine oil, transmission fluid, rear end oil and everything else.

The good thing is I have time to think about it and plan the work. I don't have a deadline and I'm not rich. I may have to buy a carb one month & the intake manifold the next month while I'm sandblasting and painting parts.

 

I bought a new 1985 F-150 4x4 with a 300 cu in 6-cyl & 4-speed (no overdrive). After 18 years, 250,000 miles, a clutch, a set of brakes, 5 sets of tires, 4 sets of U-joints, 4 exhaust systems, a factory Ford re-paint job and various other 'maintenance' items traded her on a used 2000 Focus in 2003.
I'm a big believer in the 300-6. It worked well for me for 18 years and I wouldn't hesitate to go that route again if it wasn't for hauling a camper and fishing boat at the same time.

I'm kind of anxious to see what a 360 can do. Now to just coordinate all the parts.

 

Anyone ever try a Paxton supercharger on a 360?

 

I don't know if anyone has really gone after a 360, most just chant something about making it a 390. I'm happy with mine, but have toyed with making it a twin turbo (I have two T03s off of Mercedes diesels that would be perfect). I do know that you will need to upgrade other things to get the truck to handle a beefy engine, primarily the rear suspension. I built my 360 to have tons of low and mid range grunt, and it does beyond what the rear springs could take. Loaded to the point it could not spin, it instead bent the rear springs into a reverse curve and if I get on it in first it will pitch the driveshaft. I am going with a three link rear suspension with coils and air assist at the same time I do the diesel conversion so I don't have to even think about this issue again.