According to the "Laws of Physics", Bumblebees can't fly either.

If the engine is running, the turbo is spinning, it isn't at zero. The issue isn't how fast the turbo can hit some rpm level, it's the perceived delay in engine response.

There are many factors that effect this, not just the turbo.

 

My brother in law is a very high ranking management type at the Ford Sterling Axle plant. His qualifications include a metallurgical engineering degree. We have discussed this exact performance limiting programming being batted around here. He told me that the power in this new engine will break parts without some programming protection. I complained about the traction control limitations. He just laughed. He said the twisting forces put on the axle shafts and other drive line parts when the wheels are spinning like mad and one catches traction when it hits pavement breaks expensive parts. He has BTDT, many times.

Tom's off road torque multiplication example while mathematically correct, does not take into consideration that the traction coefficients for most low speed off road operations will create wheel spin, reducing the strain on the drive line parts. You certainly can create some strain but not like a wheel suddenly grabbing traction on pavement.

I do not wish to get an argument started but the engineers have said time and again the programming is designed to minimize parts destruction due to these never seen before power levels.

In agree the programming could be smoother but I have learned how to minimize the effects by not stomping it to the floor. Just rolling into the throttle turns loose the beast fast enough for me. YMMV

Regards

 

I guess it's a good thing the drivetrain on my F450 can't read.

When I put it in low range, on pavement, to back my 5th wheel up a curb at an angle, and the wheels are turned 45 degrees, nothing breaks. It does leave divits in the pavement though.

I have tried pulling concrete posts out in low range, on a concrete driveway, and all 6 wheels will slowlwy rotate on the concrete, nothing breaks. It does leave weird looking rubber patches on the driveway.

"Never before seen power levels"? Ford never conducted durability or destructive testing before releasing the 400/800 upgrade? Right. They are experimenting on us?

The drivetrain is rated for the loads it is designed to see. If Ford is de-rating the power to preserve the drivetrain, GM will find out and have a marketing coup.

I can see the ads now--The Baby Powerstroke's have weak legs, maybe when they grow up they can use all that power..."

Is it possible to break the drivetrain? Yes, regardless of power ratings, the right guy can do it. All you need is someone to spin the wheels real fast and drive onto pavement. Duh.

 

The throttle tip-in I spoke of earlier is designed to alter the driving experience, not protect the drivetrain. I hope I haven't confused the issue.

Also-while on the topic of drivetrain abuse, I pre-loaded the drivetrain by holding the brake down while applying modest throttle. This defeats the tip-in "Save The Drivetrain" strategy some say Ford is using.

No matter how hard I pushed on the brake, the rear wheels started spinning and truck started drifting. I thought it was fun, but the people around me at the stoplight looked Duramx owners at a towing contest.

 

Instead of arguing the fine points, here are some comments by one of the Ford designers.

See post #6

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...elete-kit.html

There are a few on this thread

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...the-6-7-a.html

He started this thread.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...ne-design.html

When the guy that helped design the 6.7 Ford diesel speaks candidly, I think I will listen.

Regards

 

I get that power de-rating occurs, it is integral to the traction, stabilty control, trailer sway control and throttle tip-in strategies.

They (Ford) don't want lawsuits from crashes if the throttle were too hyper sensitive.

But from a results perspective, not using 3rd party opinions or what my brother-in-law the drivetrain killer thinks, I can tie my F450 to a tree and burn my tires to the rims in low range all day and nothing bad happens, except to the tires and local air quality.

Going back to my story about pulling concrete posts, when I couldn't break the post out with a gradual pull (all 6 wheels were spinning on the concrete with the truck bouncing), I backed up to put some slack in the line and let it rip.

The post folded over, exploded and shot concrete over the top of the truck, leaving not a scratch!!

So, as you can tell, I lack a fair amount of prudence regarding my personla safety, but you will have a difficult time convincing me the Ford SD drivetrain needs protection from the engine. It needs it from people like me (and somerone's brother in law), but not the engine.

 

Hey Rick,

I went through those threads and didn't see any mention that throttle tip-in was altered to protect the driveline. He did state "very select situations" which implies rare events. I hit my accelerator pedal far too much to be considered a rare event.

Can you quote where he mentioned this? I may have missed it, I went through the threads quickly.

 

The best one is in the H&S tuner thread...his subtle I wonder what breaks first statement says it all. Maybe I read too much between the lines. I have no doubt the driveline is stout. I do not believe it will break like a dropped egg. I do know what my brother in law told me about the traction control programming. He would know...there are not many higher in the axle plant than he is. YMMV

I may be a fortunate one, or maybe just not too bright, but I have adapted to the necessary driving parameters and the truck may have learned how I drive. I get the full throttle stomp on it lag but I never need to do that to get great acceleration out of the truck. I drive daily in Metro Detroit traffic. Weekly I make a 100 mile trip to see my mom. I just drive the truck, short, fat and happy...

Regards

Regards

 

Well than we are both either fortunate or none too bright! I have no trouble with my truck's programming either. Took me some getting used to when the engine is cold, but considering how I don't like to apply much power when it's that cold I avoid pulling out in front of people anyway.

 

I don't think anyone ever suggested that something in the driveline would snap like a twig, especially not at low mileage numbers. The protection is there for the long-term durability of the product.

that defeats nothing... if you're pre-loading the drivetrain, you're not going from idle, are you? The protection is to protect a non-loaded drivetrain, not a loaded one. *sigh*

also, you did say that this was tip-in, not torque limiting. In fact, you attempted to correct me, saying the following:

My point was just that the initial hesitation when going from idle to heavy throttle is *not* turbo lag, it's a built-in torque limiting mechanism. I'm not sure how many times I need to explain it to you, but here's one last go:

There is normal throttle tip-in programming on any drive-by-wire vehicle. This tunes the feel of acceleration and off-the-line performance to the levels desired by the manufacturers, aiming at their target audience. The torque limiting mechanism is *not* part of normal throttle tip-in. It's a "safety net", if you will. You apply too much throttle too quickly, and this mechanism steps in and prevents the normal throttle program from being applied. In reality, it's all part of the same program... this is just an exception... but since you're talking about re-flashing, you obviously don't understand how software works. I am trying to explain this in a manner that makes sense to non-geeks. Try this: *there is more than just normal tip-in at play*

Can we please put this to rest? I don't know why it's even being argued... it's just a simple thing that our trucks do. It's not a bad thing, and this throttle program is not hard *at all* for 99% of drivers to learn to use properly. It exists, it's been identified, and literally thousands of people have adjusted to it.

 

....hundreds of thousands...sales numbers are likely near 200000 by now

 

Hey Rich1961 I'm still here. All this really went over my head. I went for a drive yesterday, told my wife I don't know about turbo lag, but I know about being airborne with an empty truck!!! Ha Ha. Keep in touch about your work truck, I'd love to hear what you experience. So few of us Chassis Cab people here. Thanks...