Shell Rotella T6 Synth. 5W40 here as well. No problems.

 

Sorry guys but my Ford Service mng who is a certified diesel tech himself insists that only 10/30 is best. He says that 40 is to thick for the injectors and over time you will have issues.
I have read that the further apart the cold & hot weights the more 'unstable' the oil and that a 5/40 will sheer down to 5/20 pretty fast and that 20 is not thick enough. He says that 10/30 is very stable & is best & that syn is a waste unless you have a extra fancy filter system to extend intervals.
I live North of the border in BC & even if I wanted to put in syn 5/40 the cost is about $130 a change & I don't want to increase change intervals.
Anyone have a link to the Ford service update that ok's 5/40?
Fun stuff!

 

Your service manager is misinformed. Lots of UOA's posted here. Yes it does shear, but only to the top of the 30 wt range after 5k miles or so. Shearing to 20wt is WAY off base. Also - lots of folks running 5W40 and having no problems (check out UtahTom).

I have posted the links to the Ford bulletins in the past - I will find them again.

Edit:

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdi...are/index.html
Click on 6.0L Diesel Care
Go to the end of the video
Click on Diesel oil and filter
The reference is about 1/3 of the way through
It might also be in a TSB - not sure on that though

http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricant...gory=Motor Oil

 

If you live in a cold climate you should ONLY use synthetic. I use Mobil-1 Turbo Diesel Truck oil

 

Sorry, your Service Moron , err Manager is ignorant.

Start a 6.0 at -20F with 5w-40 vs. 10w-30 and tell me the 5w-40 is to thick for the injectors.

I've read dozens of posted oil analysis and have had Blackstone Labs analyze my 2005 PSD oil as well as another 2006 PSD's oil several times.

The Powerstroke 6.0 shears oil down to 30w, not 20w. I have never seen an analysis that showed shearing below 30w. Ever.

Couldn't find the TSB, but here's a link to Ford parts site. Scroll down and find 5w-40 Diesel Oil and read through the specs. Motorcraft® Motor Oils

Motorcraft® SAE 5W-40 Full Synthetic Diesel Motor Oil

Usage

* For light- and heavy-duty diesel engine applications
* Particularly recommended for use in Ford vehicles equipped with Power Stroke® engines, such as trucks, buses and construction vehicles
* Recommended for use in Power Stroke® diesel engines over a wide temperature range, from down to -20°F (-29°C) to up to 100°F (38°C).
* Designed for new-generation, low-emission diesel engines
* Can be used in older engines where the manufacturer recommends API Categories CD, CF-4, CG-4, CH-4, CI-4 and CI-4 plus
* Important note: Not for use in gasoline engines equipped with catalysts

 

I have been using 10w-30 for almost 40,000mi. with flawless uoa's, your service manager is not totally off base. Yes you can use 5w-40 if you choose, but at a much higher cost to you.

The cold weather characterisitics between 10w-30 and 5w-40 are almost identical, so the cold start advantage of a 5w is neglibile. Extended OCI's are also ouit of the question with the 6.0, so spending more money for the same lube protection, atleast in my opinion, is wasteful.

I have run 5w-40 in the past, I also pull a oil sample at every OCI. Quite honestly the 10w-30 has shown better results at 7,500mi. than the 5w-40 ever did. We may be splitting hairs over results here, but its your money, you choose to spend how you wish.
I have yet to see data where a 5w syn has outpreformed a 10w-30 over a 7,500 OCI.

 

First we must point out that Ford recommends the 5W40 for higher temperature and towing applications - ambient temperatures above that (and below that also) of the 10W30. Yes I know you say that the 10W30 will perform fine at ambient temps over 100*F and when towing heavy loads, but you need to include Ford's perspective that .... Ford recommends 10W30 only from 0*F up to 50*F. The 5W40 is recommended for temps from -20*F to over 100*F. I appreciate that your experience is great w/ 10W30, but you have left out the Ford recommended ranges. I only point this out so each person has the full story.

Second, the service manager is TOTALLY offbase when he said the 5W40 will shear to 20wt. The evidence is that the shearing will SLOWLY decrease and stay a VERY LONG time in the 30wt range. I get 5k miles out of my Rotealla T5 until it hits the top of the 30 wt range (Polaris labs shows the viscosity to be consistently higher than Blackstones btw). That is the range you are advocating to begin at, so you CAN'T say that that is bad .............. Now those that say you must have a 40W for hard towing or for the extra high ambient temps might say it is an issue, but you have decided it isn't.

Third, and again, the service manager is TOTALLY offbase when he says the 5W40 is too thick for the injectors. That is a joke. Unfortunately he (and apparently quite a few others) don't seem to understand the multi-viscosity oil concept.


It is good to have debates, but all the information (and accurate information) is important to have so that each can make his/her own mind up. I also did not want new forum folks to be left w/ the impression that the service manager in question had ANY credibility. I do, on the otherhand believe that the 10W30 is a great value and performs well as roadrunner says. For me, I know the 5W40 works great and the ratings are for more severe applications, so I do not mind spending the extra money - which is maybe around $100/yr.

 

Couple points here: OP Skinner is in Alberta, Canada, and if way up north, that is frigging cold. Gental Ben is from BC, and again, depending on where he is, the Northern part or the high altitudes are very cold. ------------------- <BR>

Bismic and others are talking from the south! -------------------- <BR>

Up in them Northern parts, a common belief / misconception is to use 10-30 (because it is cheap and readily available) vs. synthetic. It is not unusual for that belief to become hardened in the diesel community because in many smaller towns / outposts, there is simply not a big selection of oils. So you use what you can get: 15-40 dino and 10-30 is widely stocked. 5w-40 synth in any brand is not and beastly expensive.

Now, having said that.... before you jump all over me too!

<BR> -------------------
<BR>
There is a myth that synthetic costs a lot more. I have found low / mid priced synthetics to be at roughly the same price as higher priced dino. Using Rotella dino as a bench mark, you are paying around $20ish a gallon, a bit less in 5 gallon drums. Amazon.com: Shell Rotella T heavy Duty Motor Oil, 1 gallon individual: Automotive

<BR><BR>Lower priced / discounted oils like Valvoline Premium Blue 5w-30 at about $22 to @25 a gallon, slightly lower on sale. Do the numbers. 4 gallons. That is a $20 premium per oil change. If you are buying it in 5 gallon pails, you do slightly better. -----------------------------------------

<BR> At $20 extra, do you really need to worry about the premium? Do you really need to get your money's worth by extending drain intervals?

---------------------------------------- <BR>

Now, lets get down to the specifics of Gentel and Skinner. You are both located in a place where there are two widely distributed choices for oil that is of exceptional quality and also ---- tuned for the weather of Canada:


<BR>Diesel Engine Oil in 15W-40, 5W-40, 0W-40, 10W-40 grades | Petro-Canada<BR><BR>

Duron-E is Petrocanada / Suncor's in house brand and it comes in 5w-40, as well as, gasp, 0w-40 <BR>

If you elect to go 100% synthetic, and you are dealing with extreme cold, my advice to you is to go 0w-40 Duron-E for temps down to -40F That will get you absolutely the best cold weather starts while still maintaining adequate protection for higher temps.


------------------------ <BR>

No, Ford does not recommend 0w-40, but in Northern Canada, it is routinely used, and I have never heard of Ford voiding a warranty or having a fit when Petrocanada products are used that are otherwise compliant with CK-4 specs.

------------------------<BR>

If you want to be safe, use Duron-E 5w-40

------------------------- <BR>

If you want to be cheap, use the Duron 10W-40 synthetic BLEND

------------------------- <BR>



To me, there are some real special issues with respect to operating in the extreme cold that Mark and other southern posters do not necessarily see... Let me hit those issues in the next post.

Definition of extreme cold -15F or below for more than 2 times (cold starting cycles) a season.

 

Mark, let me start off with a thank you for posting the Ford specs, I didn't have them readily available and didn't want to mis-quote from memory.

Also I am about 30,000mi. out of warrenty, so Ford isn't an issue. Yes you are correct in that I have had very good UOA's with 5 consectitive runs of 10w-30. I am only offering my own experiences with what has worked for me. Prior to me switching to 10w-30 I had 3 consectitive runs of 5w-40 RTS, wear numbers were slightly higher and it had sheared lower than any of my runs of 10w-30!.

So for me it was foolish to spend extra money for less protection. Now with saying that there are many factors that play into how motor oil or anything else for that matter will withstand conditions in one truck vs. another. Driving style, fuel condition, ambient temp, and a host of others all play a role.

One thing is for certain these "oil debates" seem to bring everyone and everything out. To the OP, my local Ford shop has told me that when they do an OC, 95% of the time they use 10w-30, whether its a 7.3,6.0,6.4, or the new 6.7, but remember I live in northern OH.

All of the different lubes listed will work, it boils down to how much one wants to spend, but to say a 5w or a 0w syn. is needed is just not so. If someone is encountering temps at -40 or colder you need much more than a block heater to ensure you don't completely destroy every component.
I have a friend who at one time was a cold weather engineer for Ford, they used magnetic pad heaters on everything after they found out what would break.

 

I have been testing a 5w-40 oil (Valvoline Supreme Blue) synthetic in cold this season.

Here is what I found.

When it got down to -20F or below:

Without a block heater:

- the engine turned over fine (means batteries OK)

- waiting only until the glow plug light went out

- upon starting, there was a squeal like sound that persisted for about 15 seconds, before it quieted.

I do not know the source --- but am suspecting it is the turbo? HPOP?

Turbo seems more likely because oil has a long way to pump to get to it.

It could be a cam... but boy it was obvious.

It strikes me that as soon as oil pressure hit it, it was fine.

The motor bucked (misfire?) and groaned for about 30 sec before it smoothed out.

Then it was on low idle for many minutes (more than 2) before it tripped onto high idle.

Once warmed, it drove normally.

White smoke until it warmed to 1 notch.

Initial smoke is unburnt diesel, next smoke became water vapor (normal).

--------------

Preliminary conclusion:

There is clearly a place for 0w oil in extreme cold --- if only to lower / prevent damage for those critical seconds before oil reaches whatever is squealing.


So... if you are in the deep freeze.. consider 0w-40 oil

 

It does not boil down to how much you want to spend.

I am seeing issues at -20F (based on Ford specs, the 6.0 will start unassisted at that temp) that says there are quite a lot of benefits to 5w or 0w oil if you regularly encounter those temps or below.

The issue is oil pumpability and wear / damage at the beginning of a cold start cycle vs. wear at operating.

Your oil analysis data will not show this --- it averages out the wear materials found and cannot show a preponderance of damage at the beginning.

Hence, the data is invalid with respect to engine damage from extreme cold starts with difficult / slow to pump oil.

That is the core issue that lighter weight (at cold) engine oils are dealing with.



The data I have collected this winter is leading to a conclusion that:

A) at temps of -15F or lower for any period of time.

(the squeal did not happen above -15)

I am recommending 0w or at least 5w oil.

Oil analysis will not tell you much --- because the issues is not just wear materials found in the oil, but what damage is done in the critical 30 seconds before oil pressure builds.

The faster the oil pressure builds, the less the trouble.

Hence 0w or 5w.

---------

C) As far as your experience with 10w, well, you are in Ohio.

If you used 10w synth, that is a huge difference in cold weather pumpability right there.

Your mild weather there mean what you say do not necessarily apply ---- and I am just slightly north of you, but the weather extremes are more.


D) Ford Recommends ---

There is a lot more to their recommendations when you go to extreme cold.


Now that gets us into the idling debate.


I am now of the view that if you regularly operate below -25F, you are better off to either garage in a heated garage only, and then, if you can't..... leave the motor running all the time esp if you are getting below -35F


That, is my view.

As for "bad for EGR" and Ford advice?

Ford gears their advice to average owners in the lower 48 states, and with a sharp eye on the EPA and Greenies.

Their advice is largely inapplicable to extreme cold operations.

Why? First, the EGR system is largely inoperative in extreme cold anyways.

Second, much of the coking / soot build is from the cold to warm cycle, when incomplete combustion lead to oil washing down the cylinder (making oil) and also from incomplete combustion.

The white smoke you see at the beginning? That is not just water, but unburnt fuel.

True that idling is unsightly, "waste" fuel, so do the cold starts, rewarm cycle!

When it gets cold enough, there are bigger fish to fry / bigger issues.

When it tips to below -25F or -30F. I fully intend to keep the motor running everywhere I cannot find a heated garage.

I prefer those problems, than to have no starts at all... and lining up at the shop for thawing out your car / truck.

Heard that around this time, the wait to thaw out a truck in many Alaskan towns are like.... 2 months.

 

The 10w-30 I am using is dino, not syn or a syn blend. The cold flow properties between 10w-30 and 5w-40 are almost identical.

If there would be anything happening during start-up it would definitely show up on a UOA, there cannot be damage without pieces of something damaged in the oil.

I have had many -20f cold starts, I also frequent northern Ontario quite a bit and have had -40f cold starts, and luckily for me I have never experienced the squeal you mentioned.

 

Thanks for the info. I think that i will switch from the duron E 10w30 to the petrocan 0w40. Got 225024 kms on engine now using 10w30 but in these temps it hurts to hear my truck starting in the morning, if it starts, with the block heater plugged in all nite.

 

Specs:

Rotella T 10W30 pour point is -40C

<cite>www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/RotellaTCI-4CI-4.pdf

</cite><cite>
PetroCanada Duron-E

Pour point is -51C
</cite><cite>
</cite> <cite>lubricants.petro-canada.ca/resource/download.aspx?type...176...

</cite>
Since these Petrocanada Duron-E are specialist cold weather products, note the two specs that are not given for Rotella:

Cold Cranking Viscosity, cP @ °C

Borderline Pumping Viscosity cP @ °C



To me, the facts hardly suggest that a top-of-the-line Rotella T (dino) 10W30 is "nearly identical".


I have put oils in the freezer in the lab and played around with it.

I have yet to see a dino oil that is not molassas by -35ish.

Note --- just because it "pours" does not mean it is not thickened, hard to pump, or flows.

The fact that you can use 10-30 dino shows how tolerant a modern engine is to indifferent oil.

Sure, it will probably even work if you put 15w-40 in, as I had last winter.

But that is not the point, is it?



Used Oil Analysis cannot show this stuff up ---

Because it averages the data during the sampling interval.

If you do not think so, tell me how in the world do you sort out the UOA data from damage done in the first few minutes to when it is operating?

Are you taking an oil sample at every engine startup for the first 20 seconds and comparing it with the sump average readings?

The method you are using do not tell the story. Period.

All it tells you is the AVERAGE wear during the sample interval is "normal".

What I am saying is the vast majority of the stuff turned up in the analysis is the product of the first 30seconds to 3 minutes of the motor running, before the oil pumps well.

In extreme cold, that can be quite a long time.


Next winter, assuming I am posted to a cold place, it is 0w-40 for me.

 

Firstly, I live in the southern part of BC.
When I talk about cold starts we never get below +20. I also plug in the truck for a couple hours before starting below 40.
I guess from all of this my concern would be the 'hot end' of the scale.
Is 10/30 not heavy enough for towing when the outside temp is above 50???
That seems to be what the Viscosity chart is indicating.
I ran my rig pulling a 10,000+ 5th wheel last summer in air tempt as high as 90.
Why do the Ford shops use 10/30 95% of the time? Seems that a dino 15/40 in warmer climates would be the way to go.
Great banter!