I want more "thump"!!! Should I replace the 302 with a 351? or should I stroke the 302 to a 347? Would the 351 sit on the same motor mounts? same location? And what about my new AOD? Will the 351 marry up to the AOD?

Hmmm, if I replace the 302 with a 351, will the A/C, 140-amp alternator, and all the other goodies from the 302 go on the 351?

What is involved in "stroking" a 302 out to a 347? Heads? Cylinders? the whole shootin-match?

If anyone has some insight as to the extent of what stroking a 302 ot entails, I'd appreciate it.... Thanks!
Daryl

 

Daryl,

I think you'll get a wider audiance and more response if you post this in the small block forum.

Later,

 

Hello, it would be cheaper and less time to just use a 351W then to go and have your 302 punched out to 347. The tranny and mounts will work just fine I beleve because they are the same family of engines. Im not sure about the acessorys though but I beleve they will. As I said before punching out the 302 would be more of a pain and cost you a lot more but it is your choice. Good luck and enjoy!

 

Daryl,
I love your unbridled enthusiasm. Since no one has responded and the suspense is probably killing you I'll take a stab. Your initial questions are probably better served over in the Windsor forum. Secondly, you mentioned that you have developed a working relationship with a local shop. Speed costs. Have a long talk with them and your wallet.
It'll be your call on what you want to do. The '50,000 ft view' is that the 351W is a taller deck version of your 302, and sits on the same motor mounts. There are three different sump location oil pans, just get the right one. Tranny bolt pattern is the same, so AOD should bolt up. The flexplate may have to be changed depending on which 302 you have: 351w and pre-82 or so 302's are 28 oz. imbalance, 82 or so up 302's are 50 oz. imbalance. There are some repercussions to the higher 351w deck height. Your existing long tube headers probably would not fit due to the fact that your heads and exhaust ports are now sitting higher in the chassis. 302 Accessory brackets that attach to the block and front cover are probably OK, and ones just to the head and intake are probably OK. Ones that span block/front cover to heads/intake would have to be 351w. Which 302 bracket kit are you starting with? Serpentine setup?
'Stroking' involves a differing longer stroke length crankshaft. Compression height of the pistons or connecting rod length will have to be correspondingly shortend get the piston deck height correct at Top Dead Center. A smart feller came up with the 351w/393 stroker kit. Because it uses off the shelf 302 compression height pistons with 351w rods in the 351w block it's cheaper. All you need is the longer stroke 393 crank. You do not have to change the Bore of an engine when 'Stroking' it, but most do, because it also adds to the total engine displacement. Best way to build a 347 is to just buy the kit from someone like Summit. The 347 kit has a 3.4" stroke. Bone stock 351w is 3.5"which will give you a little more low end torque (grunt). Some 302 blocks are stouter than others, the 'Stang boys know exactly how much horsepower which block can take. The vanilla 70's 351w blocks can make a lot more before splitting.
Building an engine for more torque is easier/cheaper that building one for more horsepower. Torque can be increased by just building a longer stroke, larger displacement engine out of even mostly stock parts. Building for more horsepower is a more complicated task. In simplest terms an engine is an air pump. The more air you can move through the more horsepower you can make. If you have more cubes to feed, and/or operate at higher rpms you will have to increase the capacity of all parts along the way to accomadate this increased airflow. Best results are through a matched carb/intake/cam/header/exhaust package for the intended displacement and application. Yes, the heads are a major hindrance to this. Best bang-for-buck deal is a set of aftermarket heads like the Roush/World Products, and they come in differing sizes depending, again, on application.
A long talk with your shop will give some direction to where you want to go.
Adios,
Brett
PS. Clear as mud?

 

Daryl,
A quick google search for 302/351w strokers came up with a ton of info. Here are some links with additional info:
http://www.summitracing.com/landing/...9C9C%7D&Type=5
http://www.speedomotive.com/Stroker%20Kits.htm
http://www.strokerkits.com/
Adios,
Brett

 

Daryl,

Stay away from the 347. It has a reputation for durability issues surrounding ring groove location. That's not even considering the fact that you'd have to dump a boatload of money into the reciprocating assembly just to get specs close to a bone stock 351W that will bolt right in to your truck. I did quite a piece of research on the various SB Ford engine combos when I was planning my powertrain and the general consensus is that for an every day driven stroked 302, a 331 is the way to go. The measurements aren't pushed nearly so close to their extremes. Leave the 347 to those Mustang kids that have a tough time jamming anything else into their Fox bodies without a hood scoop. Like bhabben says, if you just have to have a stroker, go with a 351W based 393. It will last just as long as a stock motor if built correctly and it'll be a gassss to drive. I honestly think that you'd be extremely satisfied with a nice 351W without a stroker crank. With a set of decent heads, the 351W will feel like a raging demon in comparison to your essentially stock 302.

 

Great explanations guys. Go with a 351W Daryl. I agree there will be less potential reliability issues and it should be cheaper. Strokers are neat but you need to have a great deal of confidence in your builder since I know you would likely farm that part out.

 

351W it is! Now, is there a particular year to look for? I like the fact that the 351 is essentially the same block so it'll bolt up to the motor mounts and the AOD (with a couple of minor changes). I'd love to get a 351 and build it up a bit. The 393 stroker sounds about as far as I'd like to go. I'd like the rubber on my tires, where it belongs!... but I do like to stomp on it now and again

Any help on locating a 351???

Oh #$%!, here's a thought: with the Dakota IFS forthcoming, any problems with running the 351? Eeh-gads, I'm such an exciteable boy!!!

Thanks everyone for your input and "smarts"...

As always,
Daryl

 

Daryl,
There are some castings that are stouter than others, but none are really bad and for your purpose you can work with any 351w. These were long lasting quality castings. I've seen many that a rebuild did not require boring the block oversize or cutting the crank. Many mid-late-70's fords could be had with either the 351w or the 351m, so be careful what you purchase. Junkyards here still have 351w's for the taking. Ford vans mid-70's on up are a good source of 351w's. Also late 70's Tbirds, rancheros, 80's crown vics and merc gran marquis, and F250's and F350's.
Heads are a whole thread unto themselves...
Good Luck!
Brett
PS. Don't know of a reason it wouldn't work with the Dakota IFS crossmember.

 

Daryl

I think you won the lotto and forget to tell us? For a mild street build-up, I highly recommend the Edelbrock Performer package for great torque on the low end. Matched Intake, cam and carb combo. If memory serves, you already own the carb. You can certainly make more HP, but Edelbrock takes away the potential pain of a botched combo. (Very to easy to screw it up if you buy cams etc. while excited). Their stuff is reasonably priced and works as advertised out of the box. Go to edelbrock.com and check it out. Verify any info you get from any parts salesman. Misguided parts salesmen will start selling you drag race parts.

According to 'rage, the cylinder heads are the restricting factor on a SB Ford. If you are serious about making power, they will need upgraded but stay on the moderate side. Big valve heads will destroy your fuel mleage and street drivability. Ford Motorsports and Edelbrock both make a good street head. Cylinder heads are not necessary to make respectable street power however. The heads on your 302 could certainly be used if they are fresh.

 

FatFenders,
Heads are fresh. Rebuilt/resurfaced less than 2,000 miles ago when engine rebuilt; stock cam; reworked crank, all the go-thru of an engine rebuild.
I looked into Ford Motorsport on Summit & Jeg's for Ford Motorsport stroker kits and the Edelbrock kits. I got part #'s from Jeg's tech support for the Edelbrock, but I'd like to be sure. So I tried to log onto Edelbrock.com, but server wouldn't cooperate. I have an Edelbrock "Performer" manifold with a Carter 625cfm carb already on the motor, but not sure if the Carter can work with the Edelbrock setup. I'll try logging on again tonight.
Found a guy with a 351 Cleveland for sale in Mesa, AZ on the classifieds here on FTE. Been talking with him about it.
So, I have a few options I'm looking at. Keep ya posted; meantime, please keep the info coming. I need all the help I can get, though I have to admit, I'd LOVE to build a 351 on a bench then install it in my '59 with the AOD and 3.50/9" rear.

Daryl

 

Daryl

I'd stay with a SB since you are already setup for one. 351C is a fine engine, but lots of things would need to be changed. 302 to 351W switch would be fairly simple. Things like new exhaust and correct bellhousing patterns have to be considered or you open up the can of worms. Few things are more satisfying than firing up an engine you built yourself. You'll just need an assist the first time so the experience is pleasant..

 

'Fenders,
I'm waiting to hear back from the guy with the 351. He is contacting Kenny (moderator) with the serial numbers from the engine block to determine the year and model 351. If I'm not mistaken, the Cleveland has 6 bolts on the valve covers and the Windsor has 8.

Daryl

 

Daryl,
the 351C will use the same motor mounts and bellhousing. It is a great engine but be warned, parts are not as easy to find as the small blocks. The 351C has 8 valve cover bolts and uses the same covers as the 351M and 400. Stay away from these last two as the motor mounts and transmissions are the same as the 429/460.

 

Daryl

I did not mean to imply a 351 Cleveland wouldn't bolt up to your new AOD bellhousing. It will as Greg stated. Only making the point that switching engine families will cause many complications. Most are minor but time consuming nonetheless. If you pay for the install, a 302 or 351W block will cost considerably less unless your installer is feeling very generous. Plus you can use far more of your 302 stuff you already paid for.