Torque converter stall????
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From: "The Backroads"
Torque converter stall????
I have a 71'f100 4x4 It will recv a 429 ci engine and a c-6/np205 in place of its now stock 360fe np435/dana21 . I wanted to know what stall should my torque converter be . The 429 will get around 350-400 hp .It will be driven on trails and in the mud just weekend stuff though not competition. I was told to run 2200 stall by some friends.I just want to know what you guys think since you have the knowledge of the equipment and applications. Thanks
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Torque converter stall????
The higher the stall speed the more heat it will make and require a large cooler and some need trans mods to work properly.
Stall speed --- the amount of rpm that a given torque converter has to spin in order for it to overcome a given amount of load and begin moving this turbine. When referring to "how much stall will I get from this torque converter", it means how fast (rpm) must the torque converter spin to generate enough fluid force on the turbine to overcome the resting inertia of the vehicle at wide open throttle. Load originates from two places (1) From the amount of torque the engine places on the torque converter through the crankshaft. (This load varies over rpm, i.e. torque curve, and is directly affected by atmosphere, fuel and engine conditions.) (2) From the resistance of the vehicle to motion which places a load on the torque converter through the drive train. This can be thought of as how hard the drive train is to turn with the vehicle at rest, and is affected by car weight, amount of gear reduction and tire size, ability of tire to stay adhered to ground and stiffness of chassis. (Does the car move as one entity or does it flex so much that not all the weight is transferred during initial motion?)
Note: While referring to the resistance of the vehicle to move while at rest, the torque converter's stall speed and much of its characteristics for a given application are also affected by the vehicle's resistance to accelerate relative to its rate of acceleration. This resistance has much to do with the rpm observed immediately after the vehicle starts moving, the amount of rpm drop observed during a gear change and the amount of slippage in the torque converter (turbine rpm relative to impeller pump rpm.) A discussion involving how resistance to acceleration affects a torque converter involves more theory than fact and must involve all the dozens of other variables that affect rpm and slippage. The primary thing we want to remember about torque converter stall speed is that a particular torque converter does not have a "preset from the factory" stall speed but rather its unique design will produce a certain range of stall speeds depending on the amount of load the torque converter is exposed to. This load comes from both the torque produced by the engine and the resistance of the vehicle to move from rest. The higher this combined load the higher stall we will observe from a particular torque converter, and conversely, the lower the load, the lower the stall speed. Naturally, if the engine is not at wide open throttle we will not expect to observe as high a stall speed as we would under a wide open throttle.
Another point concerning engine torque is that we are only concerned with what we'll call the "relevant range" of the engine torque curve when discussing initial stall speed. This means if our particular torque converter chosen has a design that should produce a stall speed in a range of say 2000 to 2600 rpm given the application then we would refer to this as the relevant range of our interest in the engine's torque curve for this particular torque converter. In other words, only the torque characteristics of the engine torque in this rpm range will affect the amount of stall speed we actually observe. If we are using a high horsepower/high rpm engine that does not make much torque before 3000 rpm, it does not matter that the engine makes excellent torque over 3000 rpm if we are trying to use the torque converter in this example because its relevant range is 2000-2600 rpm and we would expect to see poor stall (2000 rpm or less) due to the poor torque produced by the engine in this range.
Choosing the correct application torque converter: The buyer of a performance torque converter normally has very specific "wants" to be filled, namely: They want to improve the performance of their vehicle. This can mean they may want the new torque converter to help the car run quicker, run faster, idle in gear better, leave from a stop harder, "chirp" the tires on the gear changes, or pull a steeper hill. The buyer may be looking for any or all of these performance improvements.
They want to improve the dependability of their vehicle meaning they want to get rid of existing drive train failures they are currently having with either OEM or competitors products such as short life (to what they perceive is a proper life), "trash" related transmission failures, overheating, hard part breakage, engine problems that they may believe is caused by torque converter and general unreliable performance.
They may have been told by friends, salespeople, advertising, technical articles, etc. that their particular application needs to have a "stall" converter. This is particularly true of first time performance camshaft purchasers where the salesperson or the camshaft catalog will recommend a higher than stock stall speed torque converter.
A torque converter does not function in a void by itself. The torque converter is an integral part of the total vehicle combination. While many vehicle combinations and applications are very similar and it may seem obvious what the best torque converter selection is, it is normally a wise step to take a look at the intended application and choose the best torque converter for the particular application. TCI uses an application questionnaire to gather the pertinent information. TCI technical salespeople also spend a large portion of their day reviewing specific customer applications and recommending torque converters for those applications. There is no "black magic" formula that the variables can be plugged into resulting in a definitive torque converter choice. Torque converter choices are made based on accumulated historical knowledge of performance in various applications and the use of all or several basic charts and ratios derived through this historical information. As with many other automotive performance parts, torque converter design and construction is a dynamic art and can not be patterned on the results of a "plug-in" formula or solely allowed to follow the historical applications. TCI looks at torque converter technology as an on going process of continuous improvement.
We are in a more fortunate position when dealing with street and mild off-road applications because there are greater numbers of similar vehicles as compared to racing-oriented applications. This allows TCI to perform most of the particular design features on categories of torque converters (i.e.: Saturday Night Special, Breakaway and Streetfighter styles) rather than have to set a unique combination for one particular torque converter as we have to do quite often with the more uncommon race applications. This also permits TCI to provide training in the form of seminars, videotapes and technical literature to the sales staffs of our leading warehouse distributors and jobbers enabling the phone salesperson or counter-person to recommend a street or street/strip application in the majority of cases.
www.tciauto.com
Stall speed --- the amount of rpm that a given torque converter has to spin in order for it to overcome a given amount of load and begin moving this turbine. When referring to "how much stall will I get from this torque converter", it means how fast (rpm) must the torque converter spin to generate enough fluid force on the turbine to overcome the resting inertia of the vehicle at wide open throttle. Load originates from two places (1) From the amount of torque the engine places on the torque converter through the crankshaft. (This load varies over rpm, i.e. torque curve, and is directly affected by atmosphere, fuel and engine conditions.) (2) From the resistance of the vehicle to motion which places a load on the torque converter through the drive train. This can be thought of as how hard the drive train is to turn with the vehicle at rest, and is affected by car weight, amount of gear reduction and tire size, ability of tire to stay adhered to ground and stiffness of chassis. (Does the car move as one entity or does it flex so much that not all the weight is transferred during initial motion?)
Note: While referring to the resistance of the vehicle to move while at rest, the torque converter's stall speed and much of its characteristics for a given application are also affected by the vehicle's resistance to accelerate relative to its rate of acceleration. This resistance has much to do with the rpm observed immediately after the vehicle starts moving, the amount of rpm drop observed during a gear change and the amount of slippage in the torque converter (turbine rpm relative to impeller pump rpm.) A discussion involving how resistance to acceleration affects a torque converter involves more theory than fact and must involve all the dozens of other variables that affect rpm and slippage. The primary thing we want to remember about torque converter stall speed is that a particular torque converter does not have a "preset from the factory" stall speed but rather its unique design will produce a certain range of stall speeds depending on the amount of load the torque converter is exposed to. This load comes from both the torque produced by the engine and the resistance of the vehicle to move from rest. The higher this combined load the higher stall we will observe from a particular torque converter, and conversely, the lower the load, the lower the stall speed. Naturally, if the engine is not at wide open throttle we will not expect to observe as high a stall speed as we would under a wide open throttle.
Another point concerning engine torque is that we are only concerned with what we'll call the "relevant range" of the engine torque curve when discussing initial stall speed. This means if our particular torque converter chosen has a design that should produce a stall speed in a range of say 2000 to 2600 rpm given the application then we would refer to this as the relevant range of our interest in the engine's torque curve for this particular torque converter. In other words, only the torque characteristics of the engine torque in this rpm range will affect the amount of stall speed we actually observe. If we are using a high horsepower/high rpm engine that does not make much torque before 3000 rpm, it does not matter that the engine makes excellent torque over 3000 rpm if we are trying to use the torque converter in this example because its relevant range is 2000-2600 rpm and we would expect to see poor stall (2000 rpm or less) due to the poor torque produced by the engine in this range.
Choosing the correct application torque converter: The buyer of a performance torque converter normally has very specific "wants" to be filled, namely: They want to improve the performance of their vehicle. This can mean they may want the new torque converter to help the car run quicker, run faster, idle in gear better, leave from a stop harder, "chirp" the tires on the gear changes, or pull a steeper hill. The buyer may be looking for any or all of these performance improvements.
They want to improve the dependability of their vehicle meaning they want to get rid of existing drive train failures they are currently having with either OEM or competitors products such as short life (to what they perceive is a proper life), "trash" related transmission failures, overheating, hard part breakage, engine problems that they may believe is caused by torque converter and general unreliable performance.
They may have been told by friends, salespeople, advertising, technical articles, etc. that their particular application needs to have a "stall" converter. This is particularly true of first time performance camshaft purchasers where the salesperson or the camshaft catalog will recommend a higher than stock stall speed torque converter.
A torque converter does not function in a void by itself. The torque converter is an integral part of the total vehicle combination. While many vehicle combinations and applications are very similar and it may seem obvious what the best torque converter selection is, it is normally a wise step to take a look at the intended application and choose the best torque converter for the particular application. TCI uses an application questionnaire to gather the pertinent information. TCI technical salespeople also spend a large portion of their day reviewing specific customer applications and recommending torque converters for those applications. There is no "black magic" formula that the variables can be plugged into resulting in a definitive torque converter choice. Torque converter choices are made based on accumulated historical knowledge of performance in various applications and the use of all or several basic charts and ratios derived through this historical information. As with many other automotive performance parts, torque converter design and construction is a dynamic art and can not be patterned on the results of a "plug-in" formula or solely allowed to follow the historical applications. TCI looks at torque converter technology as an on going process of continuous improvement.
We are in a more fortunate position when dealing with street and mild off-road applications because there are greater numbers of similar vehicles as compared to racing-oriented applications. This allows TCI to perform most of the particular design features on categories of torque converters (i.e.: Saturday Night Special, Breakaway and Streetfighter styles) rather than have to set a unique combination for one particular torque converter as we have to do quite often with the more uncommon race applications. This also permits TCI to provide training in the form of seminars, videotapes and technical literature to the sales staffs of our leading warehouse distributors and jobbers enabling the phone salesperson or counter-person to recommend a street or street/strip application in the majority of cases.
www.tciauto.com
Last edited by Merlin 306; Mar 10, 2003 at 10:34 AM.
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The higher the stall speed the more heat it will make and require a large cooler and some need trans mods to work properly.
Stall speed --- the amount of rpm that a given torque converter has to spin in order for it to overcome a given amount of load and begin moving this turbine. When referring to "how much stall will I get from this torque converter", it means how fast (rpm) must the torque converter spin to generate enough fluid force on the turbine to overcome the resting inertia of the vehicle at wide open throttle. Load originates from two places (1) From the amount of torque the engine places on the torque converter through the crankshaft. (This load varies over rpm, i.e. torque curve, and is directly affected by atmosphere, fuel and engine conditions.) (2) From the resistance of the vehicle to motion which places a load on the torque converter through the drive train. This can be thought of as how hard the drive train is to turn with the vehicle at rest, and is affected by car weight, amount of gear reduction and tire size, ability of tire to stay adhered to ground and stiffness of chassis. (Does the car move as one entity or does it flex so much that not all the weight is transferred during initial motion?)
Note: While referring to the resistance of the vehicle to move while at rest, the torque converter's stall speed and much of its characteristics for a given application are also affected by the vehicle's resistance to accelerate relative to its rate of acceleration. This resistance has much to do with the rpm observed immediately after the vehicle starts moving, the amount of rpm drop observed during a gear change and the amount of slippage in the torque converter (turbine rpm relative to impeller pump rpm.) A discussion involving how resistance to acceleration affects a torque converter involves more theory than fact and must involve all the dozens of other variables that affect rpm and slippage. The primary thing we want to remember about torque converter stall speed is that a particular torque converter does not have a "preset from the factory" stall speed but rather its unique design will produce a certain range of stall speeds depending on the amount of load the torque converter is exposed to. This load comes from both the torque produced by the engine and the resistance of the vehicle to move from rest. The higher this combined load the higher stall we will observe from a particular torque converter, and conversely, the lower the load, the lower the stall speed. Naturally, if the engine is not at wide open throttle we will not expect to observe as high a stall speed as we would under a wide open throttle.
Another point concerning engine torque is that we are only concerned with what we'll call the "relevant range" of the engine torque curve when discussing initial stall speed. This means if our particular torque converter chosen has a design that should produce a stall speed in a range of say 2000 to 2600 rpm given the application then we would refer to this as the relevant range of our interest in the engine's torque curve for this particular torque converter. In other words, only the torque characteristics of the engine torque in this rpm range will affect the amount of stall speed we actually observe. If we are using a high horsepower/high rpm engine that does not make much torque before 3000 rpm, it does not matter that the engine makes excellent torque over 3000 rpm if we are trying to use the torque converter in this example because its relevant range is 2000-2600 rpm and we would expect to see poor stall (2000 rpm or less) due to the poor torque produced by the engine in this range.
Choosing the correct application torque converter: The buyer of a performance torque converter normally has very specific "wants" to be filled, namely: They want to improve the performance of their vehicle. This can mean they may want the new torque converter to help the car run quicker, run faster, idle in gear better, leave from a stop harder, "chirp" the tires on the gear changes, or pull a steeper hill. The buyer may be looking for any or all of these performance improvements.
They want to improve the dependability of their vehicle meaning they want to get rid of existing drive train failures they are currently having with either OEM or competitors products such as short life (to what they perceive is a proper life), "trash" related transmission failures, overheating, hard part breakage, engine problems that they may believe is caused by torque converter and general unreliable performance.
They may have been told by friends, salespeople, advertising, technical articles, etc. that their particular application needs to have a "stall" converter. This is particularly true of first time performance camshaft purchasers where the salesperson or the camshaft catalog will recommend a higher than stock stall speed torque converter.
A torque converter does not function in a void by itself. The torque converter is an integral part of the total vehicle combination. While many vehicle combinations and applications are very similar and it may seem obvious what the best torque converter selection is, it is normally a wise step to take a look at the intended application and choose the best torque converter for the particular application. TCI uses an application questionnaire to gather the pertinent information. TCI technical salespeople also spend a large portion of their day reviewing specific customer applications and recommending torque converters for those applications. There is no "black magic" formula that the variables can be plugged into resulting in a definitive torque converter choice. Torque converter choices are made based on accumulated historical knowledge of performance in various applications and the use of all or several basic charts and ratios derived through this historical information. As with many other automotive performance parts, torque converter design and construction is a dynamic art and can not be patterned on the results of a "plug-in" formula or solely allowed to follow the historical applications. TCI looks at torque converter technology as an on going process of continuous improvement.
We are in a more fortunate position when dealing with street and mild off-road applications because there are greater numbers of similar vehicles as compared to racing-oriented applications. This allows TCI to perform most of the particular design features on categories of torque converters (i.e.: Saturday Night Special, Breakaway and Streetfighter styles) rather than have to set a unique combination for one particular torque converter as we have to do quite often with the more uncommon race applications. This also permits TCI to provide training in the form of seminars, videotapes and technical literature to the sales staffs of our leading warehouse distributors and jobbers enabling the phone salesperson or counter-person to recommend a street or street/strip application in the majority of cases.
www.tciauto.com
Stall speed --- the amount of rpm that a given torque converter has to spin in order for it to overcome a given amount of load and begin moving this turbine. When referring to "how much stall will I get from this torque converter", it means how fast (rpm) must the torque converter spin to generate enough fluid force on the turbine to overcome the resting inertia of the vehicle at wide open throttle. Load originates from two places (1) From the amount of torque the engine places on the torque converter through the crankshaft. (This load varies over rpm, i.e. torque curve, and is directly affected by atmosphere, fuel and engine conditions.) (2) From the resistance of the vehicle to motion which places a load on the torque converter through the drive train. This can be thought of as how hard the drive train is to turn with the vehicle at rest, and is affected by car weight, amount of gear reduction and tire size, ability of tire to stay adhered to ground and stiffness of chassis. (Does the car move as one entity or does it flex so much that not all the weight is transferred during initial motion?)
Note: While referring to the resistance of the vehicle to move while at rest, the torque converter's stall speed and much of its characteristics for a given application are also affected by the vehicle's resistance to accelerate relative to its rate of acceleration. This resistance has much to do with the rpm observed immediately after the vehicle starts moving, the amount of rpm drop observed during a gear change and the amount of slippage in the torque converter (turbine rpm relative to impeller pump rpm.) A discussion involving how resistance to acceleration affects a torque converter involves more theory than fact and must involve all the dozens of other variables that affect rpm and slippage. The primary thing we want to remember about torque converter stall speed is that a particular torque converter does not have a "preset from the factory" stall speed but rather its unique design will produce a certain range of stall speeds depending on the amount of load the torque converter is exposed to. This load comes from both the torque produced by the engine and the resistance of the vehicle to move from rest. The higher this combined load the higher stall we will observe from a particular torque converter, and conversely, the lower the load, the lower the stall speed. Naturally, if the engine is not at wide open throttle we will not expect to observe as high a stall speed as we would under a wide open throttle.
Another point concerning engine torque is that we are only concerned with what we'll call the "relevant range" of the engine torque curve when discussing initial stall speed. This means if our particular torque converter chosen has a design that should produce a stall speed in a range of say 2000 to 2600 rpm given the application then we would refer to this as the relevant range of our interest in the engine's torque curve for this particular torque converter. In other words, only the torque characteristics of the engine torque in this rpm range will affect the amount of stall speed we actually observe. If we are using a high horsepower/high rpm engine that does not make much torque before 3000 rpm, it does not matter that the engine makes excellent torque over 3000 rpm if we are trying to use the torque converter in this example because its relevant range is 2000-2600 rpm and we would expect to see poor stall (2000 rpm or less) due to the poor torque produced by the engine in this range.
Choosing the correct application torque converter: The buyer of a performance torque converter normally has very specific "wants" to be filled, namely: They want to improve the performance of their vehicle. This can mean they may want the new torque converter to help the car run quicker, run faster, idle in gear better, leave from a stop harder, "chirp" the tires on the gear changes, or pull a steeper hill. The buyer may be looking for any or all of these performance improvements.
They want to improve the dependability of their vehicle meaning they want to get rid of existing drive train failures they are currently having with either OEM or competitors products such as short life (to what they perceive is a proper life), "trash" related transmission failures, overheating, hard part breakage, engine problems that they may believe is caused by torque converter and general unreliable performance.
They may have been told by friends, salespeople, advertising, technical articles, etc. that their particular application needs to have a "stall" converter. This is particularly true of first time performance camshaft purchasers where the salesperson or the camshaft catalog will recommend a higher than stock stall speed torque converter.
A torque converter does not function in a void by itself. The torque converter is an integral part of the total vehicle combination. While many vehicle combinations and applications are very similar and it may seem obvious what the best torque converter selection is, it is normally a wise step to take a look at the intended application and choose the best torque converter for the particular application. TCI uses an application questionnaire to gather the pertinent information. TCI technical salespeople also spend a large portion of their day reviewing specific customer applications and recommending torque converters for those applications. There is no "black magic" formula that the variables can be plugged into resulting in a definitive torque converter choice. Torque converter choices are made based on accumulated historical knowledge of performance in various applications and the use of all or several basic charts and ratios derived through this historical information. As with many other automotive performance parts, torque converter design and construction is a dynamic art and can not be patterned on the results of a "plug-in" formula or solely allowed to follow the historical applications. TCI looks at torque converter technology as an on going process of continuous improvement.
We are in a more fortunate position when dealing with street and mild off-road applications because there are greater numbers of similar vehicles as compared to racing-oriented applications. This allows TCI to perform most of the particular design features on categories of torque converters (i.e.: Saturday Night Special, Breakaway and Streetfighter styles) rather than have to set a unique combination for one particular torque converter as we have to do quite often with the more uncommon race applications. This also permits TCI to provide training in the form of seminars, videotapes and technical literature to the sales staffs of our leading warehouse distributors and jobbers enabling the phone salesperson or counter-person to recommend a street or street/strip application in the majority of cases.
www.tciauto.com
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