Instrument cluster: Quick Answer
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 2
From: Suffolk, VA USA
My thought process on this all along has been to do something similar to what Dave has mentioned above....that making the truck run without the idiot lights, and adding the ammeter, are two different tasks. This is what I had in mind yesterday when I wrote that I had some things that 1974F100 can do to help figure this out. Simply, he needs to pull the existing idiot light cluster from the truck, start it, and see if it still charges. If it does, fine. If it doesn't, he needs to jump pins 12 and 13 in the cluster plug, effectively jumping the red/green and green/red wires and recheck the charging functions. From what you guys are saying, it should be charging effectively jumped. The only reason I want him to do the check is I see several other places where those wires come together, and wonder if the there wasn't redundancy built into the harness. Either way, we've effectively made the truck run after removing the idiot light and with minimal intrusion into the existing wiring. 1974F100, if you can do what I've described above and report your findings back it will go a long way towards completing this project. I don't know how much practice you have pulling a cluster, but it's is actually pretty easy. I've gotten to the point that I can get one out in about 3-4 minutes, so if you need help PM me with your phone number and I can talk you throught it. I'm free all day with the exception of church between 11 and 12.
As Dave also notes above, the addition of the ammeter is a separate issue to which I think we're very close to the right answer. 81-F-150-Explorer and I have been having a long conversation on this. But what that conversation is really focussed on is the right location for the yellow/green ammeter wire. I think we're already in agreement as to where the red/orange connection should be. My plan is to experiment today or tommorow using some spare parts I have with various locations for the connection under discussion.
What's important to keep in mind here is that for years we've been told this swap can't be done. But what we're finding is that once again, putting our heads together, what we've been told wasn't possible is actually not all that difficult to solve. Once we have the idiot light/ammeter moves solved I'll wrap this into an overall project spreadsheet that'll include the other cluster re-pinning and the tach wire additions as well. But my sense is that this is not going to that tough of a project in the end. Good job by all....
As Dave also notes above, the addition of the ammeter is a separate issue to which I think we're very close to the right answer. 81-F-150-Explorer and I have been having a long conversation on this. But what that conversation is really focussed on is the right location for the yellow/green ammeter wire. I think we're already in agreement as to where the red/orange connection should be. My plan is to experiment today or tommorow using some spare parts I have with various locations for the connection under discussion.
What's important to keep in mind here is that for years we've been told this swap can't be done. But what we're finding is that once again, putting our heads together, what we've been told wasn't possible is actually not all that difficult to solve. Once we have the idiot light/ammeter moves solved I'll wrap this into an overall project spreadsheet that'll include the other cluster re-pinning and the tach wire additions as well. But my sense is that this is not going to that tough of a project in the end. Good job by all....
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 2
From: Suffolk, VA USA
After some experimentation today here's what I've come up with. Pending 1974F100's feedback, step 1 is still in question. Beyond that the only change to what I posted previously needed to make the ammeter setup work, keeping 81-F-150-Explorer's concerns in mind, required a wire location change in step 4. Instead of splicing the yellow/green and shunt into the yellow fusible link, splice them into the black/orange wire coming off the B terminal on the alternator. I was able to recreate that setup, and the spare ammeter I used was reading the same as the one in my dash during a series of different load tests, which included the lights, electric fan, A/C, and high amp stereo running in different combinations. Variations in amperage are much more apparent in my truck than stock since I'm running a 200 amp alternator, so I'm comfortable I got the same results with both gauges.
I'll do the full mapping of all the wiring swaps while the games are on this afternoon, but as far as the ammeter wiring goes, here's what I've found. I'll make the slight disclaimer that I have not done this job personnaly, but based on what I'm seeing in multiple wiring schematics and some additional internet research, I don't see a reason this won't work. Disconnect the battery before trying any of this. Get yourself some good electrical supplies including a soldering gun, 16-18 ga and 10 ga wire, and silicone fusion tape before starting the job.
1. Disconnect pins 12 and 13 on the existing truck harness. Cut and cap these wires. They won't be used again.
2. Run new 16-18 ga wires from pins 8 and 9 in the new gauge connector through the firewall to the area of the starter solenoid. The factory colors for these wires would be red/orange at pin 8 and yellow/green at pin 9. It's not critical to match the colors, but if you can match them, or come close and make good notes, it will help a susbsequent owner or tech who may need to work on the truck in the future. We see enough cursing of POs on here.
3. Splice the wire from pin 8 into the fusible link coming off the starter solenoid that's red above the fuse and black/orange below. When making all these splices, try to just remove a section of insulation without cutting the exsiting wires, then spread the them and weave the new wires in. Make the splice below the fuse. Do not make this permanent yet.
4. Splice the wire coming from pin 9 into the yellow fusible link coming off the starter solenoid. Make the splice below the fuse. Do not make this permanent yet.
5. Make a shunt by adding a 30 inch length of 10 ga wire between the two splices you made above.
6. Make the connections permanent by soldering and wrap them with the fusion tape. Silicone fusion tape works so much better than electrical tape because it fuses to itself making a permanent weather tight bond. You could use shrink wraps for this too, you'd have to use really big pieces to get them over the ring terminals and fuses since you don't want to cut the wires.
That should get the job done. It's pretty straight forward and only requires some simple soldering skills. Probably no more than an hour for this part of the job.
1. Disconnect pins 12 and 13 on the existing truck harness. Cut and cap these wires. They won't be used again.
2. Run new 16-18 ga wires from pins 8 and 9 in the new gauge connector through the firewall to the area of the starter solenoid. The factory colors for these wires would be red/orange at pin 8 and yellow/green at pin 9. It's not critical to match the colors, but if you can match them, or come close and make good notes, it will help a susbsequent owner or tech who may need to work on the truck in the future. We see enough cursing of POs on here.
3. Splice the wire from pin 8 into the fusible link coming off the starter solenoid that's red above the fuse and black/orange below. When making all these splices, try to just remove a section of insulation without cutting the exsiting wires, then spread the them and weave the new wires in. Make the splice below the fuse. Do not make this permanent yet.
4. Splice the wire coming from pin 9 into the yellow fusible link coming off the starter solenoid. Make the splice below the fuse. Do not make this permanent yet.
5. Make a shunt by adding a 30 inch length of 10 ga wire between the two splices you made above.
6. Make the connections permanent by soldering and wrap them with the fusion tape. Silicone fusion tape works so much better than electrical tape because it fuses to itself making a permanent weather tight bond. You could use shrink wraps for this too, you'd have to use really big pieces to get them over the ring terminals and fuses since you don't want to cut the wires.
That should get the job done. It's pretty straight forward and only requires some simple soldering skills. Probably no more than an hour for this part of the job.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,846
Likes: 2,681
From: Virginia
I am still uncomfortable with leaving the regulator wired using the "i" terminal. If it works, fine, but Ford went to the trouble to wire it different for some reason.
To tell you the truth, I would much rather have the idiot charge light than the ammeter. The charge light is much more user friendly.
To tell you the truth, I would much rather have the idiot charge light than the ammeter. The charge light is much more user friendly.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8,786
Likes: 28
From: Northern California
I addressed this problem in an earlier post and recommend that it is done along with the ammeter wiring.
As CTBUTIS described: The Red/Light Green wire, and the Light Green/Red wire (at the cluster connector) needs to be connected together directly, and the light green/red wire moved from the Indicator connection on the regulator, to the stator connection. The white/black wire needs to be removed at stator connection and capped.
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 22,415
Likes: 92
From: Denver Metro Area, CO
It won't allow .xls or .xlsx
.gif
.jpe
.jpeg
.jpg
.png
.psd
So, I exported them to PDF, it's the best I can do.
There are two files:
A9P_Conversion_Shared.pdf
Idiot Light to Gauge Conversion.pdf
For the A9 file, Page 2 fits on the bottom of Page1;
Pages 3 & 4 fit onto the right-hand side of Pages 1 & 2.
For the Idiot Light file, Page 2 fits onto the right of Page 1.
It's better than nothing, I guess, but is still sub-optimal.
Sorry, man....
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 2
From: Suffolk, VA USA
Thanks man...nothing you can do about that. Something else to we can work on...better methodologies for information sharing.
For the rest of the gang....the A9P spreadsheet doesn't have anythign to do with this discussion....thats's the map for doing the MAF conversion that I sent thinking we'd be able to use that a some future sticky. The idiot light spreadsheet is the one for this discussion. It makes sense if you line the two pages up next to each other as Chris described.
For the rest of the gang....the A9P spreadsheet doesn't have anythign to do with this discussion....thats's the map for doing the MAF conversion that I sent thinking we'd be able to use that a some future sticky. The idiot light spreadsheet is the one for this discussion. It makes sense if you line the two pages up next to each other as Chris described.
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 22,415
Likes: 92
From: Denver Metro Area, CO
Alright, I deleted the A9 attachment.
My guess as to why they don't allow those kinds of files is to keep from spreading the
many & varied Microsoft-based infestations that seem to plague the users of that platform.
My guess as to why they don't allow those kinds of files is to keep from spreading the
many & varied Microsoft-based infestations that seem to plague the users of that platform.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 2
From: Suffolk, VA USA
Guys, I've continued the research on this and looked at every wiring schematic I can get my hands on, so much that my eyes have started bleeding, and the only difference I can find between the green/red wire being hooked up on the S or I terminal is where the ignition switch is located within the idiot light or ammeter circuit. The procedure I've written up would effectively leave the idiot light circuit in place and really doing nothing more than remove the light bulb. That circuit as designed would still be functional so I see no reason to change green/red from the I terminal, nor do I see a reason to cut/cap the white/black off the stator terminal.
When adding the ammeter, I'm not proposing we re-create the factory set-up. There doesn't appear to be any value-added in doing that. What I've written up views the ammeter as just an add-on, wired as you would wire an aftermarket unit into an existing system. With an aftermaket ammeter we would only be concerned about measuring the load drop between the alternator and battery, thus the simple hook-up on both sides.
The goal was to figure out if there was a simple way to convert the idiot light cluster to a gauge cluster. I really think we've found that simple solution. 1974F100...the ball's in your court... For you and anyone else interetsed making this upgrade, PM me with your email address and I'll forward the project spreadsheet. I figure with someone with average knowledge of these trucks and moderate soldering skills can do the whole job in 4-5 hours.
On a separate note, I'm also working on adding a factory ammeter face to an aftermarket voltmeter to go in the dash in place of the stock ammeter. I found an inexpensive voltmeter with a screw-on face that looks like it will work, but I'll need to do some significant modifying of the case to make it work. I'll try to take pictures as I go along this time and get them posted. I also owe you guys some pictures of my hard wired cluster that eliminated the printed circuit....works a whole lot better now.
When adding the ammeter, I'm not proposing we re-create the factory set-up. There doesn't appear to be any value-added in doing that. What I've written up views the ammeter as just an add-on, wired as you would wire an aftermarket unit into an existing system. With an aftermaket ammeter we would only be concerned about measuring the load drop between the alternator and battery, thus the simple hook-up on both sides.
The goal was to figure out if there was a simple way to convert the idiot light cluster to a gauge cluster. I really think we've found that simple solution. 1974F100...the ball's in your court... For you and anyone else interetsed making this upgrade, PM me with your email address and I'll forward the project spreadsheet. I figure with someone with average knowledge of these trucks and moderate soldering skills can do the whole job in 4-5 hours.
On a separate note, I'm also working on adding a factory ammeter face to an aftermarket voltmeter to go in the dash in place of the stock ammeter. I found an inexpensive voltmeter with a screw-on face that looks like it will work, but I'll need to do some significant modifying of the case to make it work. I'll try to take pictures as I go along this time and get them posted. I also owe you guys some pictures of my hard wired cluster that eliminated the printed circuit....works a whole lot better now.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8,786
Likes: 28
From: Northern California
Guys, I've continued the research on this and looked at every wiring schematic I can get my hands on, so much that my eyes have started bleeding, and the only difference I can find between the green/red wire being hooked up on the S or I terminal is where the ignition switch is located within the idiot light or ammeter circuit. The procedure I've written up would effectively leave the idiot light circuit in place and really doing nothing more than remove the light bulb. That circuit as designed would still be functional so I see no reason to change green/red from the I terminal, nor do I see a reason to cut/cap the white/black off the stator terminal.
The I terminal on the regulator is partially open through a resistor to ground, when there is a signal from the altenator to the stator. When the stator signal isn't present the I terminal is closed to ground, thus operating and lighting the lamp.
Switching the terminals around as I described earlier will prevent a dead short from happening between the regulator and ignition switch from occuring with the new wiring configuration when or if there is a altenator malfunction.
With a indicator light bulb in between the circut it won't be dead shorted, but remove the indicator light bulb as needed, and leaving the wires hooked up to the regulator the same (Idiot light configuration) can cause a dead short to ground in certain situations.
The regulator needs to be rewired as I described earlier to prevent that from happening.
Think of it this way. Hook a wire and a light bulb to the positive side of the battery with a fuse in the positive wire. Then hook the ground wire to the negative battery terminal. It will work fine. Next remove the light bulb from the circut and connect the positive and negative wires directly. It will blow the fuse. Etc...
When adding the ammeter, I'm not proposing we re-create the factory set-up. There doesn't appear to be any value-added in doing that. What I've written up views the ammeter as just an add-on, wired as you would wire an aftermarket unit into an existing system. With an aftermaket ammeter we would only be concerned about measuring the load drop between the alternator and battery, thus the simple hook-up on both sides.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 2
From: Suffolk, VA USA
Hey, for the record, I'm not trying to be argumentative....I'm just trying to process all the the information I'm receiving, including yours. I value your input and think these kinds of discussions are a good thing to have....
The reason I continue to question this is I keep finding a 500 ohm resistor wire in parallel with the idoit light between red/green and green/red. So it appears even with the light removed, the circuit is redundant and remains intact. If I'm seeing this right, it looks like it negate the concerns you mentioned above. It's also why I'm not convinced we actually have to tie the red/green and green red together as we remove the light.
Given what appears to be the system redundancy noted above, we aren't actually changing anything from the factory setup. So the charging system should function as if the idiot light is still in place, and that's why I think the simpler aftermarket ammeter wiring setup will work. We aren't affecting the actual operation of the system, merely taking measurements at two points that are already connected. I agree we'll be getting the full vehicle load, well at least with the exception of the starting circuit, but shunted that should not overload the ammeter. And who knows, with the full vehicle load we may actually be able to see some movement in the ammeter....
At any rate, I've enjoyed the research and discussion on this one, but the wife and I are leaving on a very needed vacation in the morning. And since internet access on cruise ships is pretty expensive, I'll leave this one in all your capable hands. Hopefully someone will dive into this and let us know what they find....
From what I see in the factory diagram, this needs to be changed for one important reason.
The I terminal on the regulator is partially open through a resistor to ground, when there is a signal from the altenator to the stator. When the stator signal isn't present the I terminal is closed to ground, thus operating and lighting the lamp.
Switching the terminals around as I described earlier will prevent a dead short from happening between the regulator and ignition switch from occuring with the new wiring configuration when or if there is a altenator malfunction.
With a indicator light bulb in between the circut it won't be dead shorted, but remove the indicator light bulb as needed, and leaving the wires hooked up to the regulator the same (Idiot light configuration) can cause a dead short to ground in certain situations.
The regulator needs to be rewired as I described earlier to prevent that from happening.
Think of it this way. Hook a wire and a light bulb to the positive side of the battery with a fuse in the positive wire. Then hook the ground wire to the negative battery terminal. It will work fine. Next remove the light bulb from the circut and connect the positive and negative wires directly. It will blow the fuse. Etc...
The I terminal on the regulator is partially open through a resistor to ground, when there is a signal from the altenator to the stator. When the stator signal isn't present the I terminal is closed to ground, thus operating and lighting the lamp.
Switching the terminals around as I described earlier will prevent a dead short from happening between the regulator and ignition switch from occuring with the new wiring configuration when or if there is a altenator malfunction.
With a indicator light bulb in between the circut it won't be dead shorted, but remove the indicator light bulb as needed, and leaving the wires hooked up to the regulator the same (Idiot light configuration) can cause a dead short to ground in certain situations.
The regulator needs to be rewired as I described earlier to prevent that from happening.
Think of it this way. Hook a wire and a light bulb to the positive side of the battery with a fuse in the positive wire. Then hook the ground wire to the negative battery terminal. It will work fine. Next remove the light bulb from the circut and connect the positive and negative wires directly. It will blow the fuse. Etc...
The factory wiring differences between the two systems are to address certain problems between the two systems. There is a reason for the differences. One is the reason I just typed above. The others I'd have to study further to see if there is any real need. Another one I mentioned earlier would be so the whole wiring load of the truck would be read through the ammeter, and not just half of it.
At any rate, I've enjoyed the research and discussion on this one, but the wife and I are leaving on a very needed vacation in the morning. And since internet access on cruise ships is pretty expensive, I'll leave this one in all your capable hands. Hopefully someone will dive into this and let us know what they find....
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,846
Likes: 2,681
From: Virginia
The resistor was placed in the circuit so the system will still charge if the light bulb burns out. You are correct, this circuit would still work with just the resistor inline.
The only question now; where is this resistor located, I am not sure myself? Guessing, I would say it's soldered to the cluster circuit board, but I am not sure. If it is, then when you swapped the cluster for the other one, the gauge cluster would not have the resistor? And just twisting the wires together would eliminate the resistor. Of course there is no reason why you could not go to radio shack and buy a resistor and solder it to each red/green-green/red wire instead of just connecting them.
The only question now; where is this resistor located, I am not sure myself? Guessing, I would say it's soldered to the cluster circuit board, but I am not sure. If it is, then when you swapped the cluster for the other one, the gauge cluster would not have the resistor? And just twisting the wires together would eliminate the resistor. Of course there is no reason why you could not go to radio shack and buy a resistor and solder it to each red/green-green/red wire instead of just connecting them.
