After months of going back and forth on my engine build i finally have decided on eagle crank and rods , Comp cams xtreme 4x4 262H cam, Edelbrock RPM intake manifold and aluminum RPM 95cc heads and holly street avenger carb 770cfm, and more than likely SRP pistons and want to come in somewhere between 9.5.1 to 10.0.1 compression. It will be going in a 93 F-250 2wd regular cab with 3.55 gears and i am thinking of using the money i would of spent on a fuel injection system and buy a tremec TKO 5spd or 6spd with adapter. I was wanting to know others opinions on if this is a good combo and what kind of power could i expect from this motor, this will be my first stab at building a big block and i want to get it right

 

Your combo is almost exactly the same as mine, except you have better heads. You're going to love it.

 

The SRP pistons with those heads should put you right at 9.5:1. Only question I have is why you are swapping out the crank too? The stock 460 crank will handle everything that buildup is going to put out. Other than that, I think you will be plenty happy with that setup

 

Comp has by appearance - seems to be a company that has experience more cam lobe failures than most and places the blame on the low ZDDP in the oils. Is it a factor yes, but I highly suspect that they are also using Chinese cam billets & they do not include Parkerizing their cams (Parkerizing is the final step and a crucial step to help break the cam in- a heated acid bath that microscopically etches the metal surface and adds a very thin layer of graphite coating which allows the cam lube to hang onto and penetrate into the cam surface during cam break in) unless you specifically request and pay additional money for it.

Considering the cam has such critical importance to the engines performance and life, to me it makes sense to use a cam grinder who will talk with you directly- even modify the cam grind to fit your needs even better and to address the possibility of cam lobe failure with the new oils. Advertized lift/duration/lobe separation is just that- advertized and not the specific grind including ramp profile that is used on the cam. That is why I highly recommend Iskenderian & Crower...both are family owned, been grinding cams for decades, and both will even re-grind your oem cam if possible- saving you even more $.

As you are probably aware, many of the cam mfgs in the past few years either sold, closed their operations to re-open elsewhere (typically with new staff) or .......In addition to Isky & Crower, I use to very highly recommend....Sig Erson & Crane...Both became part of corporate entities, eventually leading to periodic quality issues and closing their doors- I think Crane re-opened, but with a different staff. Typically the staff is very, very young and well- requires a learning curve.

If you do a search on the net, Harvey Crane has posted a little summary of the history of the people who made the cams at Crane, his opinion of what happened and the eventual outcome of several of the staff. When it comes to making an engine breathe, there are so many variable including elevation, humidity, fuel blends/available octane, most cam mfgs will vary a "core grind pattern" to match the external impactors in addition to the internal impactors- which today IMHO makes the different between and engine that runs well, to one that just seems to run a little bit better, smoother and gets better mileage than expected.

 

Ummm, Phosphate coating.
Graphite would never hold up to those pressures.
DLC (diamond like carbon) would and IT is a graphite process, but it is so slick the break in lube would not stay on the lobes, and the lifters would wear first. (works good on piston skirts though)
What Is Parkerizing
Diamond coating diamond like carbon DLC and ta-C
(Not trying to start an argument, just trying to clear the air)

 

Beechkid, that is at least the second time you have posted that copy and past article on FTE. With a 5 second google search I find it posted word for word on other web sites. So it is NOT just you talking you have taken an article from somewhere and it needs to be linked to show where your getting your info and so people can make the decison on informed information not mis-information or propaganda by someone with an ax to grind.

And it IS full of mis-information. first comp isn't having any more percentage of failures then anyone else.

 

Parkerizing is what the military does to its weapons, my M-1 and M1911A1 are both parkerized and its a durable coating for firearms, i did not know they did that to cams ?.
68 murc youre truck looks incredible, do you have any links to video of your truck running?
And L Ward youre right i could save money on the crank i just figured having a machine shop go over my stock crank and a new one from eagle would be about the same price.
How well do think my truck will drive with a TKO 5spd or 6 spd instead of the low geared granny 5pd thats in there now and the 3.55 gears

 

Yes, they do that to cams.
The military doesn't do too much Parkerizing any more.

Companies like Robar specialize in advanced coatings and finishes for firearms and artillery pieces that are far more effective than 1920's technology.

 

7 times he has posted it word for word on FTE and the mis-information is rampant in too

Consider this too, there was an article years ago that I read talking about the size of camshaft manufacturers in terms of numbers of cams produced. Comp was at the top of the list by a very large amount. Just in sheer numbers alone, more units produced is going to equal more chances for failure... look at it this way (using random numbers), if cam grinder A produces 150,000 cams, and has a 1% failure rate, that gives them 1500 failures. If grinder B produces 50,000 cams and has 900 bad cams, who has the better cam? According to the internet forums, its cam grinder A, he has more cam failures, when in reality, its grinder B, who is having a failure rate of almost 2% vs. the 1% of cam grinder A. The point being, since comp is making more cams, they are going to numerically see more failures, even tho the percentage may be the same or less.

If you are going to copy and paste, or quote, how about providing the link (especially if its being used as a sales tool from the source)

All Billet cams are OEM Spec cold chilled cast billet units that are ground in 3 stages to the final specs on Colt Cams Van-Norman/Berko machines (known in the industry as superior cam grinding machines). All cams are rough cut, checked and restraightened (if necessary), then medium cut to within 3 thousandths, checked and then final cut to within 1 thousandths prior to final prep and parkerizing. Parkerizing is the final step that some big name cam companies will not even offer, and a crucial step to help break the cam in (a heated acid bath that microscopically etches the metal surface and adds a very thin layer of graphite coating which allows the cam lube to hang onto and penetrate into the cam surface during cam break in).
PDM Racing - Cam Corner

The Parkerizing is a protective coating used on cams and sometimes lifters that disappears a few seconds after startup. This coating is deposited in an acid solution that slightly degrades the finish on the lifter foot. According to Stanadyne, they have made no change in their lifter manufacturing procedures or materials.

Chrysler Corp. stopped Parkerizing all their cams many years ago when they discovered this degradation of the surface finish actually contributed to cam failures in their 2.2L OHC engines.

Almost all domestic camshaft castings come from the CWC foundry in Muskegon, MI. The heat-treating is done at the foundry. While there can be several different casting patterns used for each engine, the material is usually identical except for the P55 castings. The heat-treating is also identical. There have been no changes at CWC or at their customers supplying semi-finished castings to the performance market other than some increased automation. About the only significant difference in the castings is the lobe width, with wider lobes offering greater load carrying ability.
CamCraft Cams - Cam Failures: Some thoughts on cam and lifter wear

Cam failure from improper lubrication is not one of the things cam grinders today are willing to cover. You go to comp, crane, isky, or most any other grinder with a bad core, and tell them you did NOT break it in per their instructions, or use additives if they say it needs to be used, and they will NOT warranty it. Kind of the same if you bring a new F150 4x4 back to ford with the motor smoked and front end blown out, and tell them you were out off road racing it every other weekend. They will laugh at you and say "sorry, improper use/abuse is not covered"
FWIW, I have installed many comp camshafts, and have had a total of THREE failures.

1. 460 BB, 278/288 Xtreme 4x4, lobe failure early on when the oils issue wasn't really known yet. Comp sent a new one out (with lifters).
2. 400 Chevy, treated with additives, but not driven much. Lobe failure, Comp offered to send a new one out, instead we had them credit towards a custom roller grind camshaft.
3. 460 BB, snapped the dowel pin off when the motor locked up at 5000rpm (bearing failure on a rod) Not comps fault. Machined a new dowel pin, and put it in a beater motor.

Also, I have dealt with Comps tech dept several times, and they are very knowledgeable on what they can and can not grind for you (based on the blanks they have available) and are more than just a "use this grind here" type sales department. If you want it, and they have a blank for it, they can grind it, and if its a bad idea, they will take the time to explain why its a bad idea.


Throwing terms out there is good, knowing what they mean is even better. Since you talk about advertised, it makes me question if you even know how lift/duration/opening and closing events, ramp profiles, etc all effect the way a motor runs or where it makes its power at. BTW, Comp has been at it for 30+ years now (decades) and was one of the first to set the old theory of cam grinding on its ear. When Comp first came on the scene, the big thing was a 3/4 race cam (wtf was a 3/4 race cam anyways, LOL) Comps claim to fame was the "sleeper" cams... hi-lift low duration, that were more street friendly and made gobs of power down low.

Also, personally I would never advise re-grinding an OEM or old cam. With the cost of a new cam, the couple $$ saved is not worth it. Years ago it was a good way to get a custom cam, but with todays costs, even a custom grind is not that hard, and you don't have to worry about whether or not the core can handle it.

So being bought out is a bad thing? Sig Erson was bought by Super Shops in 1981, are you saying in 1982 you stopped recommending them? FWIW, after the bankruptcy in 1997, if it had't been for PBM buying them they would have been gone. Instead they got the money needed to carry on. BTW, PBM also owns Dart, Carrillo, JE Pistons, and Cometic gaskets. So I guess all those products are junk too?



If you had taken the time to research, you would know that Crane did re-open, they are owned by S&S cycle out of Wisconsin, and that many of the people who used to work at the old location on Fentress are now down at the new locaton on Mason Avenue, and yes much of the equipment was liquidated. Some was bought by S&S, and some by outsiders, and some by locals (friend of mine bought some machine shop tables for his shop off of Granada)

Theres a little more to the story than Harvey posts on his website. When he was let go he only owned 17% of the company.... he had SOLD the rest of his interests out over the years. Capitalizing "GIVING THIS STOCK TO THE EMPLOYEES AS AN ANNUAL BONUS & PROFIT SHARING !" may make it sound like they took his company from him, but they could not have bought it if he wasn't selling it. Also, in 1986 he took off for 3 months on a "vacation" which was the start of his downfall. Up until the time they removed him in 1989 he was gone more and more from the company he was supposed to be running. There was also some bitterness in the use of the Crane name. He felt the company should still be his even though he had sold the name and company off bit by bit. For 17 years the employees owned and ran Crane Cams through a trust. When it was sold to Mikronite, Mikronite ended up going belly up, and were depending on loans to make payroll. When the bank said they were done loaning money out, the doors closed, resulting in them being bought by S&S as I mentioned above. The bottom line is the downfall started at Crane when it was still under Harvey, not just because it ended up being owned by Mikronite who owned it when it went belly up.


About the only thing you posted that is not mis-information. There are many variables to take into consideration when choosing a cam... engine build, type of end use, where you are running it at, etc all come into play, and yes you can get a blank custom ground to just about any profile you want. However, 9 times out of 10, the grinder is already going to have a profile that will fill the bill for what you want or are looking for.


Other than the shifter length, on a 2wd with stock height tires it should be plenty impressive! Add in a set of 3.73s or 4.11s and it will be brutal out the gate (if you can keep traction, LOL)

 

77custom408, First, thanks for the compliment.
I do have video of my truck running, and at the track. I have no idea how to get it on here though.
Also, I've got a C6 w/ 2200 stall behind my 460 and 3.25 gears. It still launches well (breaks tires loose) but with some better gears like mentioned above, and stickier tires, it would really get up and go.
I'm keeping the gears for now because I've only ever been to the track once and don't plan on using the truck for the track. I've got to get some gas mileage out of it somehow.

 

Stainless is by far my favorite but i prefer to keep them in their 1940's condition

 

I would never suggest you refinish a classic firearm in NP3 or anything like that.
I was just saying that even though my Garand and 30 Carbine are parkerized there are better coatings available to the military today.

 

68Murc how is your combo on the street, is it reliable how does it idle and what kind of power do you make

 

My truck works great on the street. In three years of almost daily summer driving, I've never had any problems. The engine has just a bit of a lope at idle at 850RPM.
I used a dyno program when I was building my engine, and it came up with 440HP and 510FT/LBS. I know it's not 100% accurate, but I'd bet I'm not too far off.
One thing I've noticed though is the new stock valve springs start to float around 5000RPM, so I don't rev it past there. If your new heads came with better springs you shouldn't have any problems.
I've always wondered what my truck would be like with a manual trans. I'm sure it would be a blast.

 

FYI- This is a direct public written quote from Harvey crane.