Can I take out all my mass air stuff and run a carburetor AND keep my E4OD?
Thanks
Kyle

 

The E4OD is computer controlled by the same box that controls the motor, and that computer needs input from the engine sensors to properly operate the transmission. There is an aftermarket stand alone E4OD controller available but it's violently expensive.. like $1500.

 

Yeah, look at this.
Baumann Electronic Controls Home Page

 

Baumann's controller works like a champ. Add the Holley TPS to the side of the carb and your set!

 

I was trying to read up on the E4OD as my truck has one, and found a thread about converting a '70s truck to IDI diesel and E4OD - this engine is all-mechanical like a 12-valve Cummins or a 6.2 Detroit, so just like a carbed engine it requires no computer in order to run, the computer is there only to control the E4OD. The part that was scary, however, is that this E4OD-only computer uses a whole bunch of things in order to operate properly - it needs a tachometer sensor, speedometer sensor, and even looks at the brake lights!!! So if you have access to a cheap/free donor IDI+E4OD truck you could possibly strip it out of the harness and all that stuff and transfer the parts in your own truck. But I think it was determined by the gearheads as way too much work for what it's worth, so they recommended just spending the $500-600 on the aftermarket computer.

Out of curiosity, why do you not like the mass-air? From what I have seen on the offroad trucks it is what most people with fancy engines tend to use, it must be a pretty good system, no?

 

Hmm...removing mass air parts to swap for a carb: $600 just for the module and harness, then there's the intake and carb, gaskets, oil, filter, antifreeze, various cleaning solvents...that's about $1000 before you even get started. Then you get to figure out how to make the tranny work with that fancy new module, when before all that was left to a computer that had everything figured out. Yeah it can be done. But if the only reason for getting rid of the engine electronics is because you're scared of them because you didn't learn about it in shop class, then my advice is learn about it before you hack it all up. Ford's Mass Air system is one of the simplest, easiest to learn systems out there for the years it was produced. If you're looking for more power, get a programmer.

Considering schools like Wyotech and UTI teach that very system as part of their curriculum, it must be a pretty good system! Removing a perfectly good mass air system to replace it with a carb is something I'd expect from a Chevy owner.

 

I Just did the conversion from EFI to carb and i love it.....However i was running OBD 1 in a 97 with a 5.8w on speed density which as far as im concerned is garbage....EFI is Amazing when its not in a vehicle thats darn near 15 years old...it is my opinion that the person responsible for efi should be shot.....all motors make heat and ironically so do electronics components that make up EFI systems......so basically engineers have designed motors with a shelve life....lets say your driving and for some ungodly reason you develop a miss fire, our efi system sees a drop in vacuum and deiced's that the vacuum loss is from that 10k pound load that isnt there behind you and starts dumping fuel to make up vacuum loss.....its a proven fact that if even one efi component fails to operate right it trows the whole system into chaos.

PS i would expect a comment like your Chevy comment from a inexperienced tech.
Plus it is way cheaper to make power with a carb!

"Removing a perfectly good mass air system to replace it with a carb is something I'd expect from a Chevy owner."

 

I knew someone would get all pissy over that. And I knew it would be taken out of context. Read the comment in it's entirety and in the sense for which it's intended. Replacing a perfectly good mass air system just because the owner is unfamiliar with it is the statement I was making. I'd like to rip out my Speed density electronics and put in a Mass Air system. My MAP sensor hates humid weather, and it gets annoying. I'd love to have a mass air system for it, but the benefits don't make up for the expense yet. Now sometimes the situation dictates the removal of a functioning EFI setup, as in the case of my Mustang. It came stock with an EFI V-6, but I bought it because it had a carb'd 302. That is required for the class the car is in, because EFI isn't allowed yet.

Now, your argument that it's cheaper to make power with a carbureted engine than with a fuel injected engine has been debated for years. It's also incorrect. If you were to build two identical long blocks, make one carbureted and one fuel injected, they would likely (Let's assume they would) make the same power out-of-the-box. However, there are parameters in EFI systems software that can be adjusted and allow that engine to make more power without changing any parts. You can make an exception if that engine was, for example, a 4.6L with the Edelbrock "Spider" intake and running a carburetor, because there is at least one computer that allows you to use a carb on an engine that was specifically built with EFI. But, in that case, the engine's power is still limited by the carburetor. Again, without changing parts, the carb is the limiting factor. Considering the fact that carburetor technology hasn't progressed in years, while fuel injection technology has done the opposite also disproves your statement. If carburetors made power cheaper than EFI, carbs wouldn't have been phased out of production street vehicles since the early 90's. Carburetors are simpler, but nowhere near as effecient.

 

I will respond later today to this I have some intresting articles for u to read

 

carbs have still progressed in technology in recent years, look at pro systems carbs or any of the custom carbs out there. How expensive would it be to put a fuel injection/ignition system on a 600 horse 347 with nitrous? I'd be willing to bet that it would be more expensive than putting on a carbed manifold and a carb assuming you buy every part new. The ignition system would probably be comparable in price though.

I do agree for a daily driver fuel injection is nice, you just get in tap the key and the motor is on and idling like a champ. Fuel injection is also nice with turbos for the tuning aspect, but once you get in the mud and all your fuel injection related 20 year old wiring gets covered in water and your motor starts missing and doing stupid crap I think carbs are where it's at

 

Yes 20yr old wiring can be an issue... my truck has developed more wiring issues in the last couple years that are now affecting the way it runs, but that's gonna happen anyway on a vehicle that old and wiring is relatively easy to replace and then you're back to a stone axe reliable EFI system that runs the same in any weather or road condition. For a daily driver that doesn't have a heavily modified motor converting from EFI to carb is not cheaper, there are lots of situations where it might be the better way to go but that ain't one of them.

 

I have to keep looking to make sure this isn't the Dentside forum. These trucks aren't that old. The argument that EFI is inferior to carbs in the mud is simply baseless. On a recent off-road outing, me and a friend of mine went to an off-road park. He played in the mud, I didn't, because I didn't want to clean it off. His truck is a '94 F-150 with a 5.0L. He eventually got the truck coated with mud. His entire engine had a shell of mud on it, and it ran fine--until it overheated from the radiator being clogged with mud. But he didn't have any wiring problems. These trucks have weatherpak connectors on the wiring, and as long as the wiring is repaired correctly, you're not going to have the kind of wiring issues you're talking about. With a sealed ignition, these trucks can run with the engine completely submerged.





Secondly, I am more than just familiar with a carburetor from Pro Systems. I just recently submitted a request for a quote for one of their SV1 carbs. Racers swear by them. I also know the cost associated with them. But now you're getting into an apples vs. oranges comparison. Take a Holley 4776-C (600 CFM 4150 Double Pumper) that was built 20 years ago, and compare it to one built last week, there's not going to be alot of difference. Looking at out-of-the-box carbs from Barry Grant, Quick Fuel, Edelbrock, and other brands, they're really not doing much different than how carbs were built years ago. There have been advancements in flow technology and the way they measure a carburetor's effeciency, but an EFI system still has more potential to make more power, cheaper, than a carb setup when it comes to non-custom made parts. A mass air system compensates to an extent for power adders like headers, cam, intakes, throttle bodies, etc., without having to do anything to the EFI software. With a carburetor, you have to re-tune it whenever you add things like headers and a bigger cam, and in many cases you can even end up with not enough carb.

Also, an EFI system uses many inputs from sensors and meters to constantly adjust the air/fuel mixture to changing conditions. Humidity, altitude, atmospheric pressure, ambient temperature, engine temperature, etc. For a carbureted engine to make those kinds of changes on the fly is simply impossible.

 

what i am saying is if you have to put together a fuel system from scratch for a built motor (think windsor stroker, with heads+cam+full bolt ons for ease of an example) you would have to buy an intake manifold (upper and lower) that's not restrictive, big mass air sensor, big throttle body, big injectors, and some sort of computer to run the whole thing (i'm going to assume the fuel pump+regulator+airfilter would cost the same amount carbed vs. fuel injection). How much would all of that cost?
quick search on summit (average prices not highest or lowest)
Injectors: $270
Throttle body: $160
Intake Manifold Top+Bottom (unported): $500
Computer: Couldn't find a price but i'm gona say at least $100
Mass air: couldn't find a price but i'm gona say at least $75
Total:$1105

Same set up but with a carb
Intake manifold (unported): $200
Carb: $600
Total: $800

this is assuming that the fuel system (pump lines regulator ect...)costs about the same to set up, and i don't see why a carbed fuel system would be any more expensive than a fuel injected fuel system.

it has also been proven on a dyno that a well tuned carb does not make significantly more/less horsepower or torque than a well tuned fuel injection system

the only real difference is fuel injection has a mess of wires and sensors and a carb does not compensate for air density changes automatically

 

There are definite advantages to both setups, as has been pointed out EFI is definitely more efficient and daily driver friendly in stock to mild built form. With the chips and tuners that are available today for most things EFI is the way to go. But when you start bumping towards the radical edge of things, a carb setup is more friendly the majority of the time. Yes, its not as efficient as EFI, but comparing a $400 street avenger Holley to a $1000+ EFI setup, thats $600 I can spend on other goodies. One of the main reasons my 460 has a carb instead of EFI. If the $600+ was no worries, I would be running EFI on the 460. Another thing is tuning. A carb is pretty straightfoward... jet it, time it, run it. EFI however needs all the parameters setup and dialed in for it to work. Not a problem when you are running stock or something on the mild end, go more radical and theres alot more tuning involved. The reasons the OEM's dumped carbs was to meet pollution/CAFE standards. If it hadnt been for that, EFI would not be where it is today. It's also the reason the early EFI systems sucked and swapping for a carb was not uncommon. But with the toys that are available for EFI today, unless you are wanting to go radical and on a budget, a carb swap may not be the best option.

Also dumping the EFI is not without some complexity involved in it. On a high pressure fuel pump setup its more that just swap the intake and add a carb. You have to add in a regulator with a return to get the fuel pressure down, modify the wiring so the pumps will run with the ECM getting all kinds of false codes from the modified system, play with the ignition system, throttle cables, etc. It can be done, and depending on the build might be the way to go. However, I guess the first question should be WHY the OP wants to lose the EFI.

 

Well, I just spent a great deal of time making some rather valid points, but this stupid ****ing site crashed or reset or something, and my comments were lost. So now I'm pretty ****ing pissed off about it, and I will try again another time when I'm cooled off a bit.