You're absolutely correct. However, according to you, you don't look to see if improper installation has an affect. In order to definitively show that thermal heat up by itself can lead to failure like this and that due to ARPs engineering etc you have to rule out the other possibilities. Which, like I said, according to you, you don't look at. That's the biggest issue that I have with your claim.

Is it possible....sure, do I see enough "evidence" to support that....no. Not based on the number of ARP installed trucks that I've seen and with my own experience with my own truck. I have only heard this theory from one person to date(which in of itself doesn't mean much as to if it's valid or not, as I'm in the minority when it comes to the whole EGR delete/bypass thing).

Yes it is. You made a claim and we are discussing it's viability. If it doesn't hold up to snuff then people shouldn't worry about it. If it does hold up to scrutiny then it's on it's road to being golden.

When anyone makes a claim, I don't care who you are, you have to be able to back it up. There is that one glaring "issue" that I have(not checking to see what role, if any, installation plays in the part of the vehicles you service with regard to failure despite having studs) with this particular claim. Could it be true....yes it could, but until there is something more definitive "on the table", I just have a hard time with it.

 

Not to further fuel an argument but there were other issues described, I just heard cracked block and from then on my only thought was do I want to worry about a block or heads down the road.

Actually they did say if you need studs, you need them but they just weren't an end all to the problems, and may cause other probs. I understand you pack enough pressure in there something's gonna happen, trouble I was having was understanding how a stock truck would stress components like that but maybe I couldn't get past the block discussion to really hear them out.

Seems to be a lot of variables with these things, some break much sooner or break despite a less stressful life so maybe some of them are just born defective and the next weakest part is always more apparant than seen on majority of trucks.

 

If we were applying 120 lbs of boost to the engine I could see the theory of the next weakest link breaking, but we are not. Replacing the stock torque to yield bolt with head studs has never damaged an engine block that I know of. While the engine is apart, installing a new oil cooler is a very good recommendation.

 

If cracked blocks were an issue wouldn't Vloney as well as all the other techs on here that work on these things be seeing them as well? I haven't seen anything until this after researching studs on here.

 

Agreed, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that I haven't heard this opinion before and really couldn't find much on it. I have a hard time going back with bolts myself.

However, it's not completely unbelievable that at some point you're going to find the next weakest part, just not sure at what point that typically happens with the 6.0, so I thought I'd ask for other opinions.

They very well could have been describing what vloney mentions, I just latched on to the block issues because they had some examples on hand and started there, with everything else it wouldn't surprise me if there was an issue with the block that allowed studs to either pull out or overly stress a particular area so I thought it was worth consideration. If bolt pattern or too few bolts allowed the stockers to stretch wouldn't studs just transfer that stress to the other end of the holes that aren't correct? Would that even matter?



Hopefully I'll get it in Monday so I'll ask if they'll expand a bit on the concept.

In my mind I guess the question is can a stock or mild tune create enough pressure to cause concern with studs or block either due to placement and/or number of fasteners, or perhaps the way the block was made? I don't know if that would be the cause but that's just what came to mind. Maybe there's other variables like vloney points out but my concern was how plausible it seems that we may be placing more stress on too few bolts or incorrectly placed bolts or whatever else the possibilities are.

 

You did see this, right TEX?

 

Now, they're correct in saying that cracks of this nature are rare (I've never seen them of this type), but its not entirely impossible. I'd think it would be caused by improper torque sequence (See there, I'm actually saying improper installation). I think you'd be more likely to see severe warping in that area of the block.

 

I did see that. And you are right, improper installation isn't the only thing that can be an issue, but sometimes it is the only issue. I have seen injectors go bad because of the oil rail not being torqued down correctly, I have seen heads lifted with head studs because they weren't also torqued correctly or the engine wasn't within spec(both of which are faulty installation). However, I have also seen injectors go bad due to bad fuel quality. With stock bolts I've seen heads lifted due to crappy tuning.

Once again, my issue is that you don't factor everything that it could possibly be, rule it out and then come to what you believe you think it could also be.

Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that there is something wrong on the engineering level for the studs as they don't allow for a certain amount of give to them that stock bolts would allow for. That's something that is going to apply to all ARP studs that are for the 6.0 engine. There should be a lot more failures that could be attributed to thermal expansion. As of yet, I personally know of none, I just know of your theory.

Now maybe something with improper installation, also makes thermal expansion an issue, but then again the root cause would be improper installation because if it was installed correctly that would mitigate the issue of thermal expansion, if there is a connection. This is where factoring in proper or not installation would be beneficial. The point I'm making with this statement is that there could indeed be an issue with thermal expansion, but there could be something underlining that is the true culprit. Otherwise, there just should be more issues out there then just a theory.

 

I understand the arguments, but I have a hard time buying into the ARP's being at fault for anything...unless of course IMPROPER INSTALL/PREP were to blame.

 

AGAIN, YOU DID SEE THAT, RIGHT? "It can be an issue, just not the only issue" Looks like someone thats looking at everything to me. Agreed, the 2.0 dodge motor is a different engine, but the headgasket issues they had were repaired going to a multi-layer steel gasket to promote movement (the original had no movement and failed). The 4.6 early motors had headgasket issues, again cured with new gasket composition. All from cast iron block, aluminum head interaction. I'm not saying a failure will be immediate, but that its something worth thinking about. If yours fail in a year, is it still improper installation?

 

All you are saying is that it can be an issue. You also say:

That tells me that when you are formulating your theory you didn't take into account connections that go along with head studs. Installation being one, or that more likely then not(at least 51% of the time) those with headstuds have aftermarket performance modifications ranging from mild to extreme. Maybe issues with thermal expansion happen when you have a combination of events, who knows. I know you can't tell when your beliefs don't account for other things that could possibly show that.


It depends. It can still be due to improper installation. How hard did the driver push the truck etc. A lot of issues with regard to vehicles rarely are one shot issues unless under extreme circumstances. It's stressing it a little bit here, a little bit there that gets you. Temporal connections(connections based on time) are the weakest of all evidence. Just because you did something and you had observed some type of reaction doesn't in of itself mean that what you did caused the failure, doesn't mean that it didn't either. It is circumstancial proof at best.

I can think of two instances on my truck alone that would directly affect that statement of yours.

1. You know that line to the EGR Cooler that connects metal to I guess would be heater hose. Well it's supposed to have to clamps on either end to hold on it. A year and a half later after I had my engine work done and my truck was on the dyno, that connection blew, coolant went everywhere or flash boiled. Apparently the person that put it back together didn't clamp it back on. It was held on by nothing but the pressure of the system. Installation(or put back together) error after longer then a year. Had that section of hose been properly clamped back on in the first place would it have blown? I have four clamps on it just to make sure that SOB doesn't blow and it hasn't and it's been slightly longer then a year and a half since it did blow.

2. This one was my own fault. After I had installed the FASS system, I had forgotten to crimp the old return line. 6 months after that while on a road trip some fuel splashed in there after filling up at a station. Well that started that line to act as a syphon and out she went. Whole tailgate was coated in a thick film of diesel. Installation error by yours truly.

Just because it takes time to show up doesn't mean that it was or wasn't installation error.

Oh.

3. Injector number 7 started to have balance contribution error. Turned out that after it was replaced the oil rail wasn't properly torqued down, which cause less then stellar oil pressure which affected the performance of the injector and brought it down. That took 3 months.

Once again, don't discount something just because it took time to show up. That's how shoddy work slips by people at times and how crappy mechanics are able to "take the money and run", because it takes time for some issues to come back, time enough that some people "forget" what might have truly caused the issue.

 

Let me translate: My beliefs (studs can be an issue because of their "unyielding" nature) aren't looking at (aren't taking into account, or my beliefs are my beliefs no matter what the horsepower is, or the quality of installation, or usage). Nothing, NOTHING in my statement says that I believe that poor installation isn't an issue. In my installations, I double, triple, and quadruple my checks and measurements. Listen very carefully......Given perfect installation quality, I believe studs can still cause a problem!

 

Oh, and stock configuration, there are no clamps at either end of the egr cooler hose. One end, an o-ring. The other end, a weird setup where you turn it, push in slightly, turn it, then pull it off. No tools needed.

 

"Dont discount something because it took time to show up." Yep, Thats right, including failures of a metalurgical nature!

 

Yes, but do you know quality of work that was done before you get in your bay? It doesn't matter if you double or triple check, I'm not calling into question your work, I'm calling into question the work that was done before you. That might be the reason why you have to do the work.

Unfortunately though in that past thread, you didn't or couldn't definitively say that the truck had perfect installation or not. So how do you know?

As well as imperfect installation as well. Like I said before timing is a horrible thing to use as reasons for something in of itself. I can think of numerous examples some that would be silly others we see on the threads all the time.