Vin problems...
#17
10-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Fleet Mechanic
#18
10-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Post Fiend
If he finds the original tag or title then that is the serial number assigned to the truck. He is mearly re installing the number after replacing the part the original was stamped on. Nothing illegal about it - he's not changing the number nor doing it with the intent to deceive (fraud).
Plus, there is absolutely no difference in the eyes of the California DMV between him restamping the frame with the correct original number, or the new number the DMV will assign him to stamp in if he doesn't find the title or tag. It's all legit and it all matches. Maybe in Indiana you have to take your truck to Jesus to get a serial number restamped and documented, but not in California.
The only reason you aren't mentioning it (you don't want to raise flags un necessarily and that will do it) is because the average California DMV worker is poised, spring loaded, and ready (being more interested in CYA than being helpful) to cause you problems if they don't have a very firm and experienced grip on what to do with these older vehicles - and they seldom do. And making a statement to a half wit DMV worker like "oh I just stamped the serial number in the frame myself" is about as stupid as going through airport security and asking the inspectors where to buy a flight manual for a Boeing 747 - that you'd just like to learn about the airplane! Not illegal, but guaranteed to cause you alot of trouble.
And, doing this was recommended to me on my trailer by a California DMV SUPERVISOR!
#19
10-15-2010, 03:56 PM
Fooey! Absolutely not true in California Jarad! You're not tampering at all!
If he finds the original tag or title then that is the serial number assigned to the truck. He is mearly re installing the number after replacing the part the original was stamped on. Nothing illegal about it - he's not changing the number nor doing it with the intent to deceive (fraud).
Plus, there is absolutely no difference in the eyes of the California DMV between him restamping the frame with the correct original number, or the new number the DMV will assign him to stamp in if he doesn't find the title or tag. It's all legit and it all matches. Maybe in Indiana you have to take your truck to Jesus to get a serial number restamped and documented, but not in California.
The only reason you aren't mentioning it (you don't want to raise flags un necessarily and that will do it) is because the average California DMV worker is poised, spring loaded, and ready (being more interested in CYA than being helpful) to cause you problems if they don't have a very firm and experienced grip on what to do with these older vehicles - and they seldom do. And making a statement to a half wit DMV worker like "oh I just stamped the serial number in the frame myself" is about as stupid as going through airport security and asking the inspectors where to buy a flight manual for a Boeing 747 - that you'd just like to learn about the airplane! Not illegal, but guaranteed to cause you alot of trouble.
And, doing this was recommended to me on my trailer by a California DMV SUPERVISOR!
If he finds the original tag or title then that is the serial number assigned to the truck. He is mearly re installing the number after replacing the part the original was stamped on. Nothing illegal about it - he's not changing the number nor doing it with the intent to deceive (fraud).
Plus, there is absolutely no difference in the eyes of the California DMV between him restamping the frame with the correct original number, or the new number the DMV will assign him to stamp in if he doesn't find the title or tag. It's all legit and it all matches. Maybe in Indiana you have to take your truck to Jesus to get a serial number restamped and documented, but not in California.
The only reason you aren't mentioning it (you don't want to raise flags un necessarily and that will do it) is because the average California DMV worker is poised, spring loaded, and ready (being more interested in CYA than being helpful) to cause you problems if they don't have a very firm and experienced grip on what to do with these older vehicles - and they seldom do. And making a statement to a half wit DMV worker like "oh I just stamped the serial number in the frame myself" is about as stupid as going through airport security and asking the inspectors where to buy a flight manual for a Boeing 747 - that you'd just like to learn about the airplane! Not illegal, but guaranteed to cause you alot of trouble.
And, doing this was recommended to me on my trailer by a California DMV SUPERVISOR!
Stamping in a number assigned by a state agency is allowed, however stamping in a VIN# assigned by a manufacturer is NOT. According to federal law, if the frame is changed the VIN# assigned to the vehicle is no longer valid. In that case, the vehicle has been altered and a new VIN# should be applied for and issued. The main point here is that Federal law (which cannot be superseded by any state) prohibits the transfer of VIN #'s. This all goes hand in hand with the prohibition of selling VIN# plates and/or titles.
When investigating possible stolen vehicles, the vin#'s on the frame (multiple locations) is always the determining factor.
#20
10-15-2010, 05:31 PM
Post Fiend
In all due respect, having worked in Law enforcement for 25 years and specifically trained in stolen vehicle recovery by the Federal government, I can tell you that you are incorrect.
Stamping in a number assigned by a state agency is allowed, however stamping in a VIN# assigned by a manufacturer is NOT. According to federal law, if the frame is changed the VIN# assigned to the vehicle is no longer valid. In that case, the vehicle has been altered and a new VIN# should be applied for and issued. The main point here is that Federal law (which cannot be superseded by any state) prohibits the transfer of VIN #'s. This all goes hand in hand with the prohibition of selling VIN# plates and/or titles.
When investigating possible stolen vehicles, the vin#'s on the frame (multiple locations) is always the determining factor.
Stamping in a number assigned by a state agency is allowed, however stamping in a VIN# assigned by a manufacturer is NOT. According to federal law, if the frame is changed the VIN# assigned to the vehicle is no longer valid. In that case, the vehicle has been altered and a new VIN# should be applied for and issued. The main point here is that Federal law (which cannot be superseded by any state) prohibits the transfer of VIN #'s. This all goes hand in hand with the prohibition of selling VIN# plates and/or titles.
When investigating possible stolen vehicles, the vin#'s on the frame (multiple locations) is always the determining factor.
But where's the line - especially if the DMV isn't consistent in it's processing of these trucks.
Example: you are putting in an IFS front end and you cut a portion of the frame out where the VIN is stamped to facilitate the installation. When the IFS is installed you weld the frame portion back on where it originally was. According to what you quoted, you are in violation of federal law for placing or transfering the VIN. Plus you need to apply for a new VIN because your old one is now void.
In my particular case, I was advised to do something by the DMV. I did it. The DMV supervisor knows I did it. And, she issued me a title and registration, with the original VIN on it. Was she in violation of Federal Law? Or did she make a determination of the applicability of the law in my specific case and make a decision to honor the original VIN? Who knows? In this particular case what was I supposed to do - tell her she was wrong, in violation of federal law, and insist she issue me a new VIN #? Probably huh? Well those of us who live out here know just exactly what you get when you try to explain to the DMV, electric company, bank, etc that they are wrong about something.
Where I was wrong was to advise another member to do this because I was told to do it, and not advising him to check with his particular DMV people first to see if that was correct or not. Bad advice - I'll beat myself for it in a minute.
Your point is well taken though, and excellent advice - better safe than sorry. If you (the OP) aren't comfortable with what you know, take what you have up to the DMV and ask the clerk what to do. But be sure and keep every paper and document every step of the process so when the next person comes along and says it wasn't done correctly, you can prove it was the DMV who did it!
#21
10-15-2010, 06:08 PM
I'm sure you are correct in every respect.
But where's the line - especially if the DMV isn't consistent in it's processing of these trucks.
Example: you are putting in an IFS front end and you cut a portion of the frame out where the VIN is stamped to facilitate the installation. When the IFS is installed you weld the frame portion back on where it originally was. According to what you quoted, you are in violation of federal law for placing or transfering the VIN. Plus you need to apply for a new VIN because your old one is now void.
But where's the line - especially if the DMV isn't consistent in it's processing of these trucks.
Example: you are putting in an IFS front end and you cut a portion of the frame out where the VIN is stamped to facilitate the installation. When the IFS is installed you weld the frame portion back on where it originally was. According to what you quoted, you are in violation of federal law for placing or transfering the VIN. Plus you need to apply for a new VIN because your old one is now void.
In my particular case, I was advised to do something by the DMV. I did it. The DMV supervisor knows I did it. And, she issued me a title and registration, with the original VIN on it. Was she in violation of Federal Law?
Or did she make a determination of the applicability of the law in my specific case and make a decision to honor the original VIN? Who knows? In this particular case what was I supposed to do - tell her she was wrong, in violation of federal law, and insist she issue me a new VIN #? Probably huh?
Well those of us who live out here know just exactly what you get when you try to explain to the DMV, electric company, bank, etc that they are wrong about something.
Where I was wrong was to advise another member to do this because I was told to do it, and not advising him to check with his particular DMV people first to see if that was correct or not. Bad advice - I'll beat myself for it in a minute.
Your point is well taken though, and excellent advice - better safe than sorry. If you (the OP) aren't comfortable with what you know, take what you have up to the DMV and ask the clerk what to do. But be sure and keep every paper and document every step of the process so when the next person comes along and says it wasn't done correctly, you can prove it was the DMV who did it!
My post was not meant to scold you, but rather help to point you in a direction to avoid problems. Where you have asked direct questions, I have answered them honestly.
#22
10-15-2010, 07:31 PM
Post Fiend
You do not need to weld the old VIN back on as the frame has the VIN in multiple locations. Because the frame was not changed, there is no need for a new VIN to be issued. Right. So on a 1951 Ford F1, other than the front right frame rail, where else is the VIN stamped on the frame that is visible during a normal DMV VIN check?
And if it is in another place then why does this original poster have to request a new vin, why not use one of the other on the frame? And if the number being directed by the DMV to be stamped in the frame matches the other ones on the frame, then it is consistent with the title, the other numbers on the frame, so why is is illegal to put the same number on it when it exists somewhere else on the frame? If they tell you to do it and are putting it on your title - their legal document - are they not issuing that VIN number to you?
YES! YES! What 'get's by' with a local clerk does you no good if you happen to be in a position for a investigator to examine your vehicle, such as after an accident of an intentional road side, vehicle check. If that were the case and they impounded your vehicle, do you think that clerk is gonna straighten it out for you? Highly doubt it. Doubt it completely, but if the process was handled improperly by the state agency responsible for it, the judges are very sympathetic when holding the poor stupid ignorant driver accountable. Nothing is more valid in this instance that the old saying, 'Ignorance of the law is no excuse".
Ignorance or knowledge of the law is irrelevant. As a tax payer who may or may not know the law, I must still utilize the State run agency to process motor vehicle documentation. I am allowed by the law to have the "reasonable expectation" that the designated representative of the state of California, who is by law directed to conduct this process, (and specifically prohibts the lay person [me] from doing so themselves) is not only qualified to but is required to conduct that process within the bounds of and in proper implementation under the law. And, if I am to "enjoy my priviliage" of driving in the State of California, then I must do as they direct in order to make that possible.
And since the state refuses to allow me to conduct that process myself, I am not liable for errors incorporated by the State agency that the State forces me to utilize. I argued thse points to a judge once following a documentation error on the part of a court clerk resulted in a warrant being issued for me. The judge supported my argument completely! He wouldn't accept any accountability on the part of the state, but he did relieve me of my responsibility in the matter.
My best advise is to not post on an internet message board advice to do something illegal and then say it's OK cause I did it. Since the Patriot Act was established you never know who might come knocking on your door after reading stuff here. Yes, Big Brother is listening! Let them come and knock and look all they want (but you guys bring your own beer if you plan to stay long - maybe some steaks to bar-b-que!)
No matter what a DMV clerk tells you, if you do something illegal, all the paperwork in the world will not make it legal.
I appreciate the advice but I'm not agreeing with your interpretation of the situation, or the law, or that this process was in fact illegal. As a matter of fact I accept that since I was directed to do it by the State representative chartered with giving those directions, that it was legal.
My post was not meant to scold you, but rather help to point you in a direction to avoid problems. Where you have asked direct questions, I have answered them honestly.
And if it is in another place then why does this original poster have to request a new vin, why not use one of the other on the frame? And if the number being directed by the DMV to be stamped in the frame matches the other ones on the frame, then it is consistent with the title, the other numbers on the frame, so why is is illegal to put the same number on it when it exists somewhere else on the frame? If they tell you to do it and are putting it on your title - their legal document - are they not issuing that VIN number to you?
YES! YES! What 'get's by' with a local clerk does you no good if you happen to be in a position for a investigator to examine your vehicle, such as after an accident of an intentional road side, vehicle check. If that were the case and they impounded your vehicle, do you think that clerk is gonna straighten it out for you? Highly doubt it. Doubt it completely, but if the process was handled improperly by the state agency responsible for it, the judges are very sympathetic when holding the poor stupid ignorant driver accountable. Nothing is more valid in this instance that the old saying, 'Ignorance of the law is no excuse".
Ignorance or knowledge of the law is irrelevant. As a tax payer who may or may not know the law, I must still utilize the State run agency to process motor vehicle documentation. I am allowed by the law to have the "reasonable expectation" that the designated representative of the state of California, who is by law directed to conduct this process, (and specifically prohibts the lay person [me] from doing so themselves) is not only qualified to but is required to conduct that process within the bounds of and in proper implementation under the law. And, if I am to "enjoy my priviliage" of driving in the State of California, then I must do as they direct in order to make that possible.
And since the state refuses to allow me to conduct that process myself, I am not liable for errors incorporated by the State agency that the State forces me to utilize. I argued thse points to a judge once following a documentation error on the part of a court clerk resulted in a warrant being issued for me. The judge supported my argument completely! He wouldn't accept any accountability on the part of the state, but he did relieve me of my responsibility in the matter.
My best advise is to not post on an internet message board advice to do something illegal and then say it's OK cause I did it. Since the Patriot Act was established you never know who might come knocking on your door after reading stuff here. Yes, Big Brother is listening! Let them come and knock and look all they want (but you guys bring your own beer if you plan to stay long - maybe some steaks to bar-b-que!)
No matter what a DMV clerk tells you, if you do something illegal, all the paperwork in the world will not make it legal.
I appreciate the advice but I'm not agreeing with your interpretation of the situation, or the law, or that this process was in fact illegal. As a matter of fact I accept that since I was directed to do it by the State representative chartered with giving those directions, that it was legal.
My post was not meant to scold you, but rather help to point you in a direction to avoid problems. Where you have asked direct questions, I have answered them honestly.
That's why we are here is to provide facts, opinions and experiences to those who ask the questions. And the more the discussion brings forth - such as this one, the better.
#23
10-15-2010, 08:20 PM
I absolutely support the knowledge you are providing to the original poster. It's up to him or her to decide what to accept and what not to accept.
That's why we are here is to provide facts, opinions and experiences to those who ask the questions. And the more the discussion brings forth - such as this one, the better.
That's why we are here is to provide facts, opinions and experiences to those who ask the questions. And the more the discussion brings forth - such as this one, the better.
#24
10-18-2010, 07:24 AM
#27
10-26-2010, 10:03 PM
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There is a company (don't know the name, it escapes me currently) that is AUTHORIZED by Ford to make a replacement VIN tag for these trucks. As long as you can provide legal documentation that you OWN the vehicle and the correct VIN #, then they will make you a new tag. I had one made a few years back for my 1954. It cost about $100 but it is an exact replacement and is legal as heck. Some things to keep in mind:
1. Did the guy you sold it too use the VIN for another project? I had a 1955 that a guy stripped the VIN plate for a different project and when I went to title the truck I had a world of problems.
2. You can always apply for a new assigned vehicle VIN if you can't come up with the original VIN. Procedures vary between states. It may affect things (value) down the road if you go to sell a 1956 that is titled as an assembled 2011.
As a USDOT certified vehicle manufacturer myself, I would advise against any sort of VIN tampering (NOT THAT THAT IS WHAT WAS SUGGESTED PREVIOUSLY ON HERE) by anyone. Every state is different but doing it right can save big hassles down the road. As a manufacturer I can assign a VIN to my products legally but I often see many vehicles and trailers that have a stamped or engraved VIN on the frames placed by local DMVs or Law Enforcement Officers. Some states don't even like when we LEGALLY affix the FEDERALLY required CERT labels. Know the laws, right or wrong, and work to make it right. Just be careful not to cross any legal lines. Good luck!
1. Did the guy you sold it too use the VIN for another project? I had a 1955 that a guy stripped the VIN plate for a different project and when I went to title the truck I had a world of problems.
2. You can always apply for a new assigned vehicle VIN if you can't come up with the original VIN. Procedures vary between states. It may affect things (value) down the road if you go to sell a 1956 that is titled as an assembled 2011.
As a USDOT certified vehicle manufacturer myself, I would advise against any sort of VIN tampering (NOT THAT THAT IS WHAT WAS SUGGESTED PREVIOUSLY ON HERE) by anyone. Every state is different but doing it right can save big hassles down the road. As a manufacturer I can assign a VIN to my products legally but I often see many vehicles and trailers that have a stamped or engraved VIN on the frames placed by local DMVs or Law Enforcement Officers. Some states don't even like when we LEGALLY affix the FEDERALLY required CERT labels. Know the laws, right or wrong, and work to make it right. Just be careful not to cross any legal lines. Good luck!
#29
10-26-2010, 10:33 PM
What about applying for a RECONSTRUCTION title or LIEN sale?
Call the CHP with your paperwork, and they will assign you to a Vehicle Verification officer, somewhere in the county that you reside. Normally, it takes about 6 weeks to get an appointment, depending on where you are in california.
You take all the papers to the CHP, and they simply check that all the motor numbers, frame numbers and so forth match the paperwork that you provided. If the "street rod" does not have any numbers, then they will issue you a CA identification number, which is a blue metal sticker they will affix to the door jamb, firewall, or frame of the car you are registering.
They sign off on the correct forms, you take this back to the DMV, and they will then issue you your plates, and a few weeks later, your title.
Quoted from the link below under California
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...itle_a_hot_rod
Call the CHP with your paperwork, and they will assign you to a Vehicle Verification officer, somewhere in the county that you reside. Normally, it takes about 6 weeks to get an appointment, depending on where you are in california.
You take all the papers to the CHP, and they simply check that all the motor numbers, frame numbers and so forth match the paperwork that you provided. If the "street rod" does not have any numbers, then they will issue you a CA identification number, which is a blue metal sticker they will affix to the door jamb, firewall, or frame of the car you are registering.
They sign off on the correct forms, you take this back to the DMV, and they will then issue you your plates, and a few weeks later, your title.
Quoted from the link below under California
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...itle_a_hot_rod
#30
10-27-2010, 02:24 AM
Post Fiend
Not 100% sure on the 55 but try looking (under all the build up) on the front right [pasengers side] top of the frame rail adjacent to the front shock mount. It should be stamped there.