I have a 2005 F-250 6.0L and one of my friends has a 2005 F-350 6.0L. Both have same rear end gears and tire sizes. We both installed the Edge programmer. His truck has quicker fuel response and firmer shifts. His smokes alot and mine hardly at all. Mine has 44,000 and his has around 85,000. we switched our programmers out and still the same results. He said he did have his computer flashed about 6 months ago and to my knowledge mine has never been. Could this be the reason for the better running. Didnt know if he had gotten any new updates with the flash

 

Since you swapped programmers and got the same results, we can rule out Edge software updates.

Besides run hours and maintenance each engine responds differently to programmers, especially canned tunes which are meant to be generic enough to cover a very wide range of calibration codes.

Based on what I have read (mostly on this forum), Edge is not a good choice for the 6.0.

Hopefully Tex will be by to offer his real world experience with the 6.0.

 

What you have here is a problem that people have with using what is refered to as "canned" tunes. In other words, "one size fits all" type of tuning. Some have really good experiences, others do not(as you don't).

What tuners like Edge, Banks, BullyDog etc don't take into account are differences in programming from one truck to another. "You" might actually have two trucks with identical model yrs, builds, mods, but yet the PCM programming from the factory is different. You might have one strategy and your friend has another. Tuners like Edge, don't compensate for that. In order to get around that, how they make their power isn't always the best in the world. The flash that your friend has might actually behave better with the Edge then the flash that you have. That difference of the strategies on the two trucks is enough by itself to cause different behavior with the tuner. I don't know if you are using the Juice or Evolution, both go about things a little differently. One is the lesser of two evils, but it is still "evil" regardless.

The 6.0 is very finicky when it comes to tuning and you can ruin one really quickly. Edge products have been known to wreck havor on the TS tranny and that tranny is about one of the stoutest autos stock that there is, so that does say a lot about what Edge does to have that kind of result.

I would highly suggest for you and your friend would be to ditch the Edge and get custom tunes from SCT and/or Spartan(what I use, although I have at one time used SCT and even BullyDog before that).

You didn't mention it in the list of what your truck has, but I would think that it would be better to mention this just in case. I wouldn't have an a/m intake on the 6.0s either. The stock intakes flow just as much as the a/m ones until you hit 3700 on the tach, then the a/m ones flow better. Problem with that is that on a stock or just tuned 6.0, max HP/TQ is at 3300 and 2000 respectively, so that extra air at 3700 with that a/m intake is going to waste. This isn't even going into the poor filtration qualities of quite a lot of the filters on the market right now. This is coming from someone with 508 HP with his 6.0 and there are people with more HP then I'm running and still have their stock intakes. Like I said, I don't know what you've done in regard to the factory intake, but I thought I would mention that just in case you(and/or your friend) have done something to it.

 

Tex, You have basicly the same truck as I have F350 6.0 so if I want to maximize my MPG what would you do today? I think I have enough power but am not even sure of that yet. I just got this truck and empty I barely get low 14's highway. A friend told me about the edge evolution on his dodge the he increased 6 mpg which I hear you say is the wrong chip for the 6.0 So tell me with out my spending my life savings and then changing and going another way where should I look and what kind of mileage boost can I hope to get? Do ou think the SCT is the one or the Sparton? or what.

Thank you in advance

 

You aren't really going to like this, but I don't believe in getting performance enhancers(which is what you are talking about) for the express purpose of MPG gains.

I'm not saying you may not see a benefit from them with regard to MPG, but it isn't a sure thing. I might see an improvement and the guy that lives 2 miles down from me with the exact same setup might not.

Now having said that, if you still want to try the performance way I would either do Spartan(which I like more and what I use now) or the SCT(what I have used and still think is a damn good product, but I like the DashDAQ over the LiveWire, which I wouldn't get, just get the X3).

You might get lucky and see MPG gains, but don't think that you will see them. Oh by the way, I get 14s as well.

As to your friend, did he hand calculate that mileage or was that from the computer? If he got it from the computer then more then likely it's going to be way off. If he hand calculated it then I would be worried about his math. 6 MPGs is just a little too impressive.

 

I moved up from a 96 chevy 6.5 turbo so that might be the reason that I feel that I have enough power. I pulled my trailer up over the mountain here (from 5000 to 8000) feet and there seemed to be a lot of power with the trailer at 10500 lbs. Tow haul mode seamed to tame the downhill pretty well but I guess that I could add the exhaust brake down the road. right after I bought this truck they did head gaskets, EGR, EGR pump, and seals on the oil cooler (under warrenty) so I think that addressed most everything I had read that was bad about this engine. So I hope that I will be good to go if I could just get the mileage up some. I only tow maybe 5 or 6000 per year and another 5 running solo maybe more so it would help alot. In fact it's getting broke in in the Mts over the next 3 weeks in Elk Camp so we will see how it does there. I don't really care for the ride but I like the truck so far.

Thanks again

 

Now with custom tuning you can get the VGT turbo to act like an exhaust brake if you want. Good for towing pretty heavy loads greater then 5k. I wouldn't run the program while unloaded though.

 

Ok now you really do have my attention. I wont be back from camp till next Tuesday but since I am a "newby" what do you mean custom tuning? is that on the Dash daq and is that the spartan? Sorry but I know that I will have to do some of my own leg work but as you have talked about before, there are other chips and I would assume that some are better than others for Ford or Dodge or for the Chevy and for different applications. So when I get home Tuesday eve I hope to start reading about both brands and how to install them or if there is someone local here in Montana that sells or can install them and of course being on a fixed income I will have to think about cost versus savings. But if I can knock off two birds with one stone so to speak. (economy and exhaust brake) then I am doubly interested. Of course as with most of us I will still have to sell the whole idea to my wife but she is in agreement in principal with the idea of the two birds theory. The 96 6.5L diesel had no way to add power that I could find and my other 12 valve 91 Cummins that I replaced my 460 in my motorhome with several years ago needed some options but back then I couldn't afford much more than the change over. But it has served us very well and I went from 3.5 MPG to 10 MPG in a 35 foot class A. (yes it took a very big hammer to make that work. And a couple months working in my spare time, and the help of a couple friends. Used the Dodge Tranny - Rebuilt before instalation) I know a little maybe enough to do the instalation with good instructions. My buddy that did the Edge had it done and all it was was to unplug the factory connector and put the edge inline. From what I can see by online prices he paid $200 for the knowledge and 10 mins of work.
How is these chips going to get the programming that you speak of. I have read about the edge and it comes with several different programs? and I guess you try one, then the next and so on till you find one that works the best for your truck, Is that the idea. I read where you spoke of the generic program and that the other guy probably needed a more specific program for his truck to get the performance that his friend got. How do you do that or where do you go for that? Or how do you make the guess that that would help? Is that a trial and error type of guess?

Again Thank you so much for your time and knowledge

 

Alright, first off, forget about Edge or anything that has Shift on the Fly in it. Shift on the fly is mutually exclusive from properly tuning your truck and more often then not it'll lead to expensive tranny repairs and depending on how you use it engine repairs as well.

Shift on the fly might sound cool and it is cool in theory for the 6.0, but it doesn't work in practice. On the 7.3 it did, but not on the 6.0. So please set those aside.

Now custom tuning can be done with the SCT and the Spartan Phalanx. If you are on a fixed budget, I would suggest SCTs X3 with a set of gauges. Don't do SCT's LiveWire, they still don't have all the bugs worked out on that. It's a 50/50 shot of getting a good one.

Most people get their X3s from Eric at Innovative Diesel. I think he even has the tuner plus 3 custom tunes for a set price. What he will do is send you the device, you'll need to hook it up to your truck and get your truck's strategy number. Then you email Eric with that number and what tunes you are looking for. For instance, one would be Tow w/turbo brake. He will write your tune(s) based off that strategy number that you gave him and email them back to you. You then upload those to your device.

All you have to do from there is take the device, hook it up to the OBD-II port. Then with Key On Engine Off answer a few questions to upload the tune. Turn the key off so the computers will reset and then you are good to go. Remove the device from the OBD-II port and store somewhere safe and were you can get to it when need be.

I just really wish you wouldn't put as much emphasis on mileage with something like this. You run a real good chance of being disappointed.

 

I completely agree with that. Canned tunes have to cover a wide variety applications, driving conditions, climates, and driving styles, so it's pretty difficult for any "off-the-shelf" tuner to meet everyone's needs all the time. This is why there are many places that provide custom tuning; To tailor tunes to the customer's needs.

Completely inaccurate, at least in regards to the Evolution. The Evolution looks at the individual calibrations and has maps designed for each strategy group. This means that tuning for a VXCF4H2/TTP1 calibration is very different from tuning for a VXCF9H7/FRT4 (Inferred EBP) strategy. The Juice, of course, is what it is and doesn't have any compensation for changes based on model years.

Some trucks also, for various mechanical reasons, don't respond well to tuning. Clogged EBP sensors, sticking VGT vanes, weak HPOP, and many other mechanical issues can cause less than stellar performance as well.

Here we go with the tranny stuff again. Historically, the Juice has been tough on transmissions due to the minimal control of shifting and line pressure. The Evolution, on the other hand, has direct control of the TCM parameters and is much more inclusive in regards to shifting modifications. People keep saying "My Edge killed my tranny" and do not clarify that it they had a Juice, which unfortunately causes people to lump all the Edge products into one pot.

The Evolution is custom tunable just like the SCT. There's nothing wrong with the hardware, so even if you don't like the canned tuning you've still got options.

Take care.

 

Not with the one with the canned tunes. There is no way that it could possibly tweak it "on the fly" like that. It has a list of recognized strategies, it looks for that strategy. It sees it's there and it uploads the tuning.

I have yet to hear of that with regard to an off the shelf tuner and that certainly isn't in any info pamphlet of theirs that I've seen unless it is a new thing. If that was indeed the case, it would for sure put itself as a good alternative to custom tuning.


Those vehicles wouldn't respond well period to factory tuning either, because those sensors would be giving faulty or no information to truck's computer as well. Tuned or stock.



I'm fully aware of that. Even though I did not clarify that in my post, so you couldn't have known that, but that's why I was asking if it was the Evolution or the Juice. People like to get the Juice, because of the tranny "safety" features that it has.

That is an issue of so many things not just Edge products.

I believe you are refering to the Gryphon tuner if I'm not mistaken. Now the problem with that is that I'm only aware of one maybe two people that tune those things at Gryphon(that actually make the tunes), SCT and the Spartan have multiple tune writers, not all writers are good at every tune, some write better tow tunes then street tunes or race tunes etc. You would have more options of getting tunes that you like then just getting it from one person or maybe two people.

I also never said anything was wrong with the hardware, if you look all my "complaints" had to do with tuning(software) not hardware.

What are the odds of people having custom tuned Edge? I would be willing to bet more often then not(that would be at least 51% of the time) people that have the Edge have the off the shelf version and not the custom tuned one.

 

What you're not aware of (and I wouldn't expect you to be) is that the Evolution has the ability to identify specific tables/functions within a strategy and then chose from various tables based on the values of the identified data. This make the build structure more flexible than many of the other programmers on the market.

Agreed. But people don't often notice how poorly their trucks run until they install a programmer. Just like some trucks run better than others, some programmers work better than others and even some base strategies run better than others. For example, the Inferred EBP reflash Ford has subjected the masses to is often considered to be a very poor performing strategy. The same vehicles, when programmed back to the original, earlier strategies, will immediately perform better and get better fuel economy. Oddly though, some trucks run just find on VXCF9 and make 450+ HP. It's not always just tuning.

Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I've never been a big fan of the Juice. Granted, it's shift on the fly and it has "backdown" to help with EGTs and shifting, but programmers are always going to come out ahead due to the increased control over inputs and outputs.

Agreed, but custom tuning options for the Evolution (and even Gryphon) are going to change very soon. Very shortly, SCT will be losing their stanglehold on the custom tuner market. As it is, Drew Tech offers the DashDaq and there are other inexpensive products on the horizon as well.

I didn't mean to make it sound like you were kicking the hardware. It's just that if someone already has an Evolution, they do have options other than just "tossing it".

Um... You'd be surprised. Now that the CS/CTS doesn't have to be sent in for physical modifications (like the older Evolutions), custom tunes are easily available. Plus, the CS/CTS has the capability to support just about any number of custom tunes. I have 12 tunes on mine, although I really don't know what to do with all of them.

Take care.

 

Now that is interesting info.





The DashDAQ in of itself isn't a tuner. Now the Spartan Phalanx which uses the DashDAQ as a platform to load tunes is something else. But I haven't seen anything to where the DashDAQ is a tuner by itself without the Spartan interface on there.


That is true.


I have the Spartan Phalanx for my 6.0 and I can support how many that I can fit on my 4GB SD card.

 

In regards to the DashDaq, the device itself isn't a tuner but the source code is open source and anyone that has a mind to can create a programming interface for it. I was just using it as an example of what is on the horizon. There are other devices (I've been testing) that will be coming out soon that are going to be just as interesting.

Anyway, if there's anything else you care to know about the Evolution, let me know.

Have a great weekend.

 

That's true it is a Linux based computer. I've done some mild programming to it, but not along the lines of a programming interface. At least not with the 6.0 one, however, I might do something with the DashDAQ 2 now that you have me thinking about it.