egr delete questions

[vloney]

I won't make any statements, just ask questions. The thoughts are just to show how complex the 6.0 is. YA READY?..........If you delete the egr (closed off up-pipe, disabled egr valve), will the IAT sensor relay colder or hotter intake mixture to the pcm? Remember, IAT is an input for boost. With a deleted egr, what does the map sensor say? The pcm will cycle the vgt to look for changes in the values of the sensors related to boost (including egr). When theres a discrepancy, the pcm will default to a set reading for all of them (sound familiar?). The inferred ebp of the 03 and early 04 is relying heavily on IAT, MAP, EGR, EOT for its calculations. The pcm, upon seeing no temperature change in the IAT with boost and load changes, will do what with injector duty cycles?

[vloney]

Now, if you bring your truck in complaining about "surging" with a "delete", where do I start looking?

[bismic]

Excellent thought-provoking post Vince.

This post (and at least one similar post from the distant past) is why I have chosen to NOT delete the EGR system until I run out of warranty. At that point, I will install a custom tuner that properly accounts for these input parameters. Until then, I will (as meticulously as possible) watch over my combustion system components.

I sure understand why folks do it though - it is a source of so much "pain". I know that you have often said in the past that you should "get to the source" of the problem when you experience oily, thick soot that clogs up the EGR valve. I 100% agree. However, this is hard to do w/ the complexity of our engines - even quite a few dealership mechanics are not that good at it either.

I know from all the forums that there are many "stock" 6.0L trucks now making it to the "200k + mark" w/ original EGR system and original injectors. So it is possible to have reliability with an EGR system. It is just absolutely critical to keep your combustion system (and your EGR system) functioning well. There are just so many things that can go worng ............

[william_04_x]

in reference to EGR proof, you meant IAT2 correct?

[brickie]

I will give it a go..But go easy on me Vince remember I am a bricklayer.The IAT2 will read hotter since there is no cooling effect from the EGR cooler though in high egt situations the reading could be lower.MAP would read lower as there is no exhaust pressure,the pcm will over fuel the injectors in order to try and get all readings to get with the program.

[vloney]

The IAT2 (yeah you're right) will read hotter from the onrush of hot exhaust gasses entering through the egr valve. Now, with a delete, the pcm is expecting to see this hotter temp, but its not there. So, whats wrong with "Just get a dummy egr valve and lay it on the intake" (I know you've heard that one). With a delete, will the map reading be higher than expected, lower, or right on?

[npccpartsman]

Give the master tech 5 stars. One thing most don't realize is that if you DON"T run a programmer to recalibrate for EGR delete is that the PCM will go insane and you most likely will still have problems. It's not as easy as unplugging switches and capping off pipes. There's a LOT more involved.

Vince.....have you ever thought about going into the tuner business???

[bismic]

Originally Posted by vloney

The IAT2 (yeah you're right) will read hotter from the onrush of hot exhaust gasses entering through the egr valve. Now, with a delete, the pcm is expecting to see this hotter temp, but its not there. So, whats wrong with "Just get a dummy egr valve and lay it on the intake" (I know you've heard that one). With a delete, will the map reading be higher than expected, lower, or right on?

I would expect the MAP reading to be lower than expected due to less flow.

[06silvercrew]

I won't make any statements, just ask questions. The thoughts are just to show how complex the 6.0 is. YA READY?..........If you delete the egr (closed off up-pipe, disabled egr valve), will the IAT sensor relay colder or hotter intake mixture to the pcm? Remember, IAT is an input for boost. With a deleted egr, what does the map sensor say? The pcm will cycle the vgt to look for changes in the values of the sensors related to boost (including egr). When theres a discrepancy, the pcm will default to a set reading for all of them (sound familiar?). The inferred ebp of the 03 and early 04 is relying heavily on IAT, MAP, EGR, EOT for its calculations. The pcm, upon seeing no temperature change in the IAT with boost and load changes, will do what with injector duty cycles?
__________________


The IAT2 will be cooler without a doubt. The MAP may vary slightly but I cant imagine it being enough to throw things off (the map statement is theroy on my part, havent actually logged this) EGR or no EGR, the IAT will still read (change) with boost and engine load as the Turbo will still compress the air charge, causing temp to rise causing IAT2 to sense this.

I completly agree with you on trucks (especially early) with just a delete could be troublesome, especially for people like you and I to diagnose. However with a reputable tuner that knows what he is doing all these paramaters can be acounted for so the PCM can perform as designed.

[hubler13f]

So what I am getting out of this is that by cutting out the scoop, capping off the egr feed on the up pipe and the EGR cooler in my 2005 6.0 if I do not have a tuner to adjust for the EGR delete, I will imminently run into problems.

I wasn't aware that it was not a stand alone mod.

Sorry I'm just a grunt and some of this terminology just needs broken down barny style sometimes.

[06silvercrew]

Originally Posted by hubler13f

So what I am getting out of this is that by cutting out the scoop, capping off the egr feed on the up pipe and the EGR cooler in my 2005 6.0 if I do not have a tuner to adjust for the EGR delete, I will imminently run into problems.

I wasn't aware that it was not a stand alone mod.

Sorry I'm just a grunt and some of this terminology just needs broken down barny style sometimes.

In a nuttshell, yes. Do people do it without a tuner? Sure. Would I? No.

[UGA33]

Subscribing to this thread

[KRDiesel]

Hey this is somethingI know about!! You are talking about the EPA mode. When PID 0400 is set the PCM limits Boost to reduce NOX.

This "feature" was introduced in the buzz flash. On federal 03 and early 04 a CEL will not be set.



P0400 EGR Flow Failure (outside the minimum or maximum limits) The EEGR system is monitored once per drive cycle during steady state conditions above 48 mph . The test will fail when a malfunction is detected by PCM calculations indicating the EGR flow is less or greater than expected.

EEGR valve stuck open or closed
Connector to EEGR not seated
EEGR motor windings shorted or open circuited
No power to EEGR
Harness open or shorted to power or ground
Vacuum signal to MAP restricted or leaking
MAF sensor signal erroneous
Damaged PCM
Carbon build up in EEGR valve seat area
One or more sensor not responding or out of range


All of the following sensors input data to the PCM for proper operation of the EEGR system: ECT, CPS, IAT, MAF, TP, MAP. Any DTC relating to these sensors must be resolved prior to addressing

[dc3655]

I would suppose the more skilled tune writers like Eric @ Innovative, Tadd @ Elite, and Matt @ Spartan have all made their EGR-delete programs to take all this into consideration? If so, then that is the route that I will definitely take when I finally do my EGR delete.

Thanks for the great info guys!

[KRDiesel]

Yes, a compent tuner can remove the EGR functions.