Wire size ????
#16
03-08-2009, 05:25 PM
Dave, I thought about the availability of MTW wire but I forgot to mention it in my posts. I get my MTW from a couple of industrial sources, one being strictly an industrial wholesaler, the other will sell to the public with plastic so it is available to the general public you just have to call around and find a place who will sell it to the general public.
As for doing the wiring yourself, I've been doing industrial wiring for over 20 years on some very elaborate systems. When I did the complete panel last year the hardest part was forgetting a wiring. What a PIA to have 90% of a wire run to the back of the truck all wrapped in tape to find you forgot a wire. In a panel if I miss a wire I just throw another one in. The easiest way would be to run all the wires of the same gauge and color and just label the ends and run a few extra wires so you could use them if you missed one. I have all of the wire marking devices necessary to do this but I wanted to follow the color coding in the manual. It was a challenge but I found it to be quite satisfying to do it that way. I'll do it again when I do the F-4.
I am sure if I counted my time I'm paying more to do it myself than if I bought an aftermarket system but for me it wouldn't be as much fun. That's what it's all about.
As for doing the wiring yourself, I've been doing industrial wiring for over 20 years on some very elaborate systems. When I did the complete panel last year the hardest part was forgetting a wiring. What a PIA to have 90% of a wire run to the back of the truck all wrapped in tape to find you forgot a wire. In a panel if I miss a wire I just throw another one in. The easiest way would be to run all the wires of the same gauge and color and just label the ends and run a few extra wires so you could use them if you missed one. I have all of the wire marking devices necessary to do this but I wanted to follow the color coding in the manual. It was a challenge but I found it to be quite satisfying to do it that way. I'll do it again when I do the F-4.
I am sure if I counted my time I'm paying more to do it myself than if I bought an aftermarket system but for me it wouldn't be as much fun. That's what it's all about.
#17
03-08-2009, 05:37 PM
Further clarification on wire size and amp capacity. Electrons move along the surface layer of the conductor, so the more surface area you have the less resistance and more carrying capacity before it starts heating up. A multi stranded wire of the same ga size will have more amp capacity than the same ga size with only a few to one conductor. Beware of cheap stranded wire with just a few larger strands in the bundle.
.
I have a few pouints to Make. alchymist, Yes it's true that it doesn't matter if it's 6 or 12 volts in respect to wire size. The point was, that in 6 volt systems the current for any given similar device is twice as much. That means the guage of the wire has to be larger to handle the current difference. It's Basic Electricity 101 and ninth grade General Science. As for using the crimpers that come with the splice assortmet is concerned, you might as well because if you bought a splice assortment, it's probably junk anyway.
No, I didn't buy a splice assortment, I mentioned not using the crimpers that come in a splice assortment. Most of the crimp connectors I use are T&B...not some import plastic coated tin tubing.
More on the crimpers... Those cycled crimpers were designed to be used by people who do not apply enough pressure to make a good crimp. They will not allow you to release until you have gone through the complete crimp cycle. It is another idiot proof tool. It's made that way so you can't screw up the crimp.
Actually they were designed to ensure a repeatable & reliable quality crimp every time. If you look at most of the crimpers pictured above they make one crimp across the connector. The ones I pictured make two, with a small space between. This gives twice the crimp contact area, and raises a small hump in between the crimps to aid in wire retention. There is a reason those type crimpers cost in the $400-$500 range--- and it's not to make them idiot proof.
No, I didn't buy a splice assortment, I mentioned not using the crimpers that come in a splice assortment. Most of the crimp connectors I use are T&B...not some import plastic coated tin tubing.
More on the crimpers... Those cycled crimpers were designed to be used by people who do not apply enough pressure to make a good crimp. They will not allow you to release until you have gone through the complete crimp cycle. It is another idiot proof tool. It's made that way so you can't screw up the crimp.
Actually they were designed to ensure a repeatable & reliable quality crimp every time. If you look at most of the crimpers pictured above they make one crimp across the connector. The ones I pictured make two, with a small space between. This gives twice the crimp contact area, and raises a small hump in between the crimps to aid in wire retention. There is a reason those type crimpers cost in the $400-$500 range--- and it's not to make them idiot proof.
The Socialists told us long ago that since they could not beat us with force, that they would destroy us slowly from within. So far it is working pretty well.
#18
03-08-2009, 06:10 PM
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#19
03-08-2009, 06:10 PM
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Further clarification on wire size and amp capacity. Electrons move along the surface layer of the conductor, so the more surface area you have the less resistance and more carrying capacity before it starts heating up.
What you are refering to here is the skin effect and it only applies to high frequency AC currents. It does not apply to DC. If you want to test this theory you can by comparing the current carrying capacity of a solid piece of copper to a piece of copper tubing of the same outside diameter. If you apply enough current to melt the tube it will not do the same to the solid conductor. Cross sectional area is more essential to current carrying capacity than surface area with both DC and power line AC frequencies.
A multi stranded wire of the same ga size will have more amp capacity than the same ga size with only a few to one conductor. Beware of cheap stranded wire with just a few larger strands in the bundle.
I have checked both the Electrical Engineer's Hand Book and the Electricians Hand Book. Neither publication supports this theory.
Dave, I'll have to disagree with you that the premade harness makers use the cheapest materials available. I have an EZ Wire harness and have to say they did not cut any corners on quality of materials IMHO.
AX, I am baseing this on a scale of comparrison to industrial grade materials that I use. In a comparrison to what is used in the manufacture of production vehicles, I am sure it compares or even surpasses the quality. Obviously, from what you posted below, you do have some issues with at least one pre-made harness that is offered.
Rusty, I'd look at your situation as an opportunity to add a disconnect plug under the seat or under the dash and then add the necessary wire length from the plug to the gauges. See how many conductors you need to extend then pick up a male and female automotive grade plug and socket. They are available from auto supply stores and some electronic parts supply stores. I prefer that they have removable connectors to solder to rather than pigtails attached. I bought a quantity of them a while back they were dirt cheap in industrial quantities, so I may be able to supply you with what you need.
If you are extending an EZ wire harness, I'd just match the wire ga of the wires you are extending. I'd give EZWire a call to see if you can get the wire from them. I have talked to them several times and find them very friendly and helpful, unlike that other big name company that should use -in the a##, rather than -less.
What you are refering to here is the skin effect and it only applies to high frequency AC currents. It does not apply to DC. If you want to test this theory you can by comparing the current carrying capacity of a solid piece of copper to a piece of copper tubing of the same outside diameter. If you apply enough current to melt the tube it will not do the same to the solid conductor. Cross sectional area is more essential to current carrying capacity than surface area with both DC and power line AC frequencies.
A multi stranded wire of the same ga size will have more amp capacity than the same ga size with only a few to one conductor. Beware of cheap stranded wire with just a few larger strands in the bundle.
I have checked both the Electrical Engineer's Hand Book and the Electricians Hand Book. Neither publication supports this theory.
Dave, I'll have to disagree with you that the premade harness makers use the cheapest materials available. I have an EZ Wire harness and have to say they did not cut any corners on quality of materials IMHO.
AX, I am baseing this on a scale of comparrison to industrial grade materials that I use. In a comparrison to what is used in the manufacture of production vehicles, I am sure it compares or even surpasses the quality. Obviously, from what you posted below, you do have some issues with at least one pre-made harness that is offered.
Rusty, I'd look at your situation as an opportunity to add a disconnect plug under the seat or under the dash and then add the necessary wire length from the plug to the gauges. See how many conductors you need to extend then pick up a male and female automotive grade plug and socket. They are available from auto supply stores and some electronic parts supply stores. I prefer that they have removable connectors to solder to rather than pigtails attached. I bought a quantity of them a while back they were dirt cheap in industrial quantities, so I may be able to supply you with what you need.
If you are extending an EZ wire harness, I'd just match the wire ga of the wires you are extending. I'd give EZWire a call to see if you can get the wire from them. I have talked to them several times and find them very friendly and helpful, unlike that other big name company that should use -in the a##, rather than -less.
I do think that your idea about installing connectors to extend the wiring is the best bet. It really would bother me to see a big ball of butt splices or even heat shrinked solder splices.
Later Man...
#20
03-08-2009, 06:23 PM
Rusty,
The subject has gotten a little away from your original post. Basically the weather here is pretty crummy and, speaking only for myself, don't have much to do except sit at the computer and rattle on.
If you are only in need of a small quantity of wire you can get it from Radio Shack, that's probably the easiest place to find it. If you think you're going to need a 500 ft roll you can get it at the local big box home improvement store but they will only sell you THHN wire but that shouldn't really matter since you're only going to run a small amount. Check out the drawings I posted and the current capacities alchymist listed. You should be able to figure out the size wire you need.
To make things easier if you're running a long length of wire, mark both ends of the wires. You can buy the tape wire markers at the above mentioned places.
The subject has gotten a little away from your original post. Basically the weather here is pretty crummy and, speaking only for myself, don't have much to do except sit at the computer and rattle on.
If you are only in need of a small quantity of wire you can get it from Radio Shack, that's probably the easiest place to find it. If you think you're going to need a 500 ft roll you can get it at the local big box home improvement store but they will only sell you THHN wire but that shouldn't really matter since you're only going to run a small amount. Check out the drawings I posted and the current capacities alchymist listed. You should be able to figure out the size wire you need.
To make things easier if you're running a long length of wire, mark both ends of the wires. You can buy the tape wire markers at the above mentioned places.
#21
03-08-2009, 06:23 PM
Posting Guru
Dave, I thought about the availability of MTW wire but I forgot to mention it in my posts. I get my MTW from a couple of industrial sources, one being strictly an industrial wholesaler, the other will sell to the public with plastic so it is available to the general public you just have to call around and find a place who will sell it to the general public.
As for doing the wiring yourself, I've been doing industrial wiring for over 20 years on some very elaborate systems. When I did the complete panel last year the hardest part was forgetting a wiring. What a PIA to have 90% of a wire run to the back of the truck all wrapped in tape to find you forgot a wire. In a panel if I miss a wire I just throw another one in. The easiest way would be to run all the wires of the same gauge and color and just label the ends and run a few extra wires so you could use them if you missed one. I have all of the wire marking devices necessary to do this but I wanted to follow the color coding in the manual. It was a challenge but I found it to be quite satisfying to do it that way. I'll do it again when I do the F-4.
I am sure if I counted my time I'm paying more to do it myself than if I bought an aftermarket system but for me it wouldn't be as much fun. That's what it's all about.
As for doing the wiring yourself, I've been doing industrial wiring for over 20 years on some very elaborate systems. When I did the complete panel last year the hardest part was forgetting a wiring. What a PIA to have 90% of a wire run to the back of the truck all wrapped in tape to find you forgot a wire. In a panel if I miss a wire I just throw another one in. The easiest way would be to run all the wires of the same gauge and color and just label the ends and run a few extra wires so you could use them if you missed one. I have all of the wire marking devices necessary to do this but I wanted to follow the color coding in the manual. It was a challenge but I found it to be quite satisfying to do it that way. I'll do it again when I do the F-4.
I am sure if I counted my time I'm paying more to do it myself than if I bought an aftermarket system but for me it wouldn't be as much fun. That's what it's all about.
Yeah, been there, done that... Most of the work I have done has been on panels that were assembled but not wired and we did the internal wiring on site. That seems to be the way AEP likes to work in their plants. Big companies like AEP and GM have their own standards. GM used to use all red wire for control systems. AEP even uses green conductors as current carrying conductors, Which is contrary to the NEC standards.
As for the idea of it being more fun to do your self, I agree. But even beyond that, I do a lot of stuff that no pre-wired kit can accomodate without serious modification. I also tend to model my work after what you would see in aircraft electrical systems which I consider far superior to automotive systems.
Later Man...
#22
03-08-2009, 06:29 PM
Posting Guru
You should have known we can't just let something like this lay. It's just the way we are. Think nothing of it.
Later Man...
#24
03-08-2009, 07:35 PM
Posting Guru
#25
03-08-2009, 09:07 PM
Post Fiend
I can't believe you guys are having a conversation about electricity and didn't invite me - I'm so hurt! (not really, I haven't been around to much over the past few days. I took 5 days off to work on my own truck and it's been a dawn to dust affair.)
But here's my female opinion: SIZE DOES MATTER!
And here's why: Theoretically, voltage plays no part in wiring size and it is the amperage that warrents wire size. But we aren't dealing with a theoretical situation but a defined requirement. So, you guys need to take that one step farther: The amperage needed is dictated by the wattage requirement of the given peripheral - be it a motor or lights etc.
So, at a fixed wattage, if the voltage is reduced, the amperage must be increased to perform the work required at a level that is almost inversely proportional the percentage of the reduction in voltage. Huh?
If you have a motor that requires 20 watts to turn at 12 volts, and you change that to a 6 volt motor that requires 20 watts to turn, you are going to have to increase the amperage by almost double to perform th erequired work (turn the motor). And as mentioned, that requires a larger wire size. Wire size is related to the Wattage/Amperage need of the device being powered.
A few months back, our esteemed collegue "Jniolon" published a wire chart based on wattage, voltage and length of run (which is also a factor) Here is the link to that table. It' right on the money as far as SAE standards. Here it is:
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon...chart12vdc.xls
Hope that helps!
But here's my female opinion: SIZE DOES MATTER!
And here's why: Theoretically, voltage plays no part in wiring size and it is the amperage that warrents wire size. But we aren't dealing with a theoretical situation but a defined requirement. So, you guys need to take that one step farther: The amperage needed is dictated by the wattage requirement of the given peripheral - be it a motor or lights etc.
So, at a fixed wattage, if the voltage is reduced, the amperage must be increased to perform the work required at a level that is almost inversely proportional the percentage of the reduction in voltage. Huh?
If you have a motor that requires 20 watts to turn at 12 volts, and you change that to a 6 volt motor that requires 20 watts to turn, you are going to have to increase the amperage by almost double to perform th erequired work (turn the motor). And as mentioned, that requires a larger wire size. Wire size is related to the Wattage/Amperage need of the device being powered.
A few months back, our esteemed collegue "Jniolon" published a wire chart based on wattage, voltage and length of run (which is also a factor) Here is the link to that table. It' right on the money as far as SAE standards. Here it is:
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon...chart12vdc.xls
Hope that helps!
#27
03-08-2009, 11:53 PM
Post Fiend
It's easy. Nothing less than 16 AWG - gauges only.
14 AWG - good for lights, wipers, heater motor.
12 AWG for high draw items - cigar lighter, horns, ignition and starter button.
Nothing less than 10 AWG for charging circuits.
If you are running that wire more than 6 (six) feet, go to the next larger gauge.
Any wiring going to a vol-ta-drop carrying 12 volts to reduce to 6 volts should be the next gauge larger going into the vol-ta-drop (on the 12 volt side)
14 AWG - good for lights, wipers, heater motor.
12 AWG for high draw items - cigar lighter, horns, ignition and starter button.
Nothing less than 10 AWG for charging circuits.
If you are running that wire more than 6 (six) feet, go to the next larger gauge.
Any wiring going to a vol-ta-drop carrying 12 volts to reduce to 6 volts should be the next gauge larger going into the vol-ta-drop (on the 12 volt side)
#28
03-08-2009, 11:56 PM
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Wiring
The connector sounds good and can be helpful when troubleshooting. If the connector is a bulkhead/firewall mount all the better. I would stick with the same wiring and markings throughout. Call EZ and ask for a price. Splicing is a pain, I've used splices, having cut the plastic off , soldered and used heat shrink. Makes for a smaller size. I staggered the splices leaving about a inch or more between, again smaller size. Good luck, chuck
#29
03-09-2009, 09:40 PM
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#30
03-10-2009, 06:24 AM
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WOW... I'm a colleague ??? now to Dictionary.com to find out if Julie likes me or not...
what Julie said was edzackery correct. It's simple ohm's law. you cut the voltage in half the current will double... at least close to double... we're not doing rocket science in our truck wiring... I'm sure NASA goes down to the 9th decimal number when calculating their power requirements on the shuttle or space station... but this is a dang truck... some with a generator that fluctuates several volts with engine speed. The battery other than a storage device acts like a big ole honkin capacitor to smooth the peaks and valleys out in the electrical system.
For other than a Concours restoration I can't imagine why anyone would want a generator, 6 volt system or cloth covered wire.
The guidelines that Julie and Alchemist offered were good ones and the caveat they gave you applies... when in doubt ?? go up a size.. it ain't rocket science and it also ain't a lot of money to go up a gauge.
AX ??? I kinda disagree with your conductor surface theory. The theory of the current traveling on the outside of the conductor is called "skin effect" and has been general knowledge since the late 1800's. But, all my learning from Ham Radio says Alchemist is right... this effect is only relevant in a.c. circuitry and the higher in frequency the greater the affect.
Rusty...
we've kinda overanswered your question... but there is a ton of very useful information in this post... almost 'sticky-able'. I wish that Dave or Alchemist or Bob would write up a good primer on wiring and such...
another point of contention... solder vrs crimp. I've done a bit of research lately on this choice. I used to be the suspenders and belt kind guy ... I'd crimp then solder, letting the molten solder creep in all the nooks and crannies. (what the heck is a crannie ??) There was an excellent thread on garageforum.com http://http://www.garagejournal.com/...light=crimping
It covered everything from the cheap dollar store connectors and tools to the multi-hundred buck ratcheting crimpers... with supporting info. Consensus was that a good ratcheting crimper will make a sound solid mechanical connection... with quality connectors Many times I've seen the Walmart connectors fail after crimping... where a good Ideal or Amp industrial connector will last a lifetime. Good tools and good material will make a good connection. Heck, every airplane in the air uses crimp-ons. Google 'crimp on connectors"... there is a mess of good info out there...
Compare the cost of a good ratchet tool (they can be had for 25-30 bucks and up) and connectors with the cost/aggravation of wedging yourself between a-pillar and seat to look at a connection under the dash, on a cold rainy night when you're stranded on the freeway bridge with 1.25 feet of space between you and the traffic ?? Oh, and your flashlight batteries are almost dead.... and your toolbox is at home... get the picture...
what Julie said was edzackery correct. It's simple ohm's law. you cut the voltage in half the current will double... at least close to double... we're not doing rocket science in our truck wiring... I'm sure NASA goes down to the 9th decimal number when calculating their power requirements on the shuttle or space station... but this is a dang truck... some with a generator that fluctuates several volts with engine speed. The battery other than a storage device acts like a big ole honkin capacitor to smooth the peaks and valleys out in the electrical system.
For other than a Concours restoration I can't imagine why anyone would want a generator, 6 volt system or cloth covered wire.
The guidelines that Julie and Alchemist offered were good ones and the caveat they gave you applies... when in doubt ?? go up a size.. it ain't rocket science and it also ain't a lot of money to go up a gauge.
AX ??? I kinda disagree with your conductor surface theory. The theory of the current traveling on the outside of the conductor is called "skin effect" and has been general knowledge since the late 1800's. But, all my learning from Ham Radio says Alchemist is right... this effect is only relevant in a.c. circuitry and the higher in frequency the greater the affect.
Rusty...
we've kinda overanswered your question... but there is a ton of very useful information in this post... almost 'sticky-able'. I wish that Dave or Alchemist or Bob would write up a good primer on wiring and such...
another point of contention... solder vrs crimp. I've done a bit of research lately on this choice. I used to be the suspenders and belt kind guy ... I'd crimp then solder, letting the molten solder creep in all the nooks and crannies. (what the heck is a crannie ??) There was an excellent thread on garageforum.com http://http://www.garagejournal.com/...light=crimping
It covered everything from the cheap dollar store connectors and tools to the multi-hundred buck ratcheting crimpers... with supporting info. Consensus was that a good ratcheting crimper will make a sound solid mechanical connection... with quality connectors Many times I've seen the Walmart connectors fail after crimping... where a good Ideal or Amp industrial connector will last a lifetime. Good tools and good material will make a good connection. Heck, every airplane in the air uses crimp-ons. Google 'crimp on connectors"... there is a mess of good info out there...
Compare the cost of a good ratchet tool (they can be had for 25-30 bucks and up) and connectors with the cost/aggravation of wedging yourself between a-pillar and seat to look at a connection under the dash, on a cold rainy night when you're stranded on the freeway bridge with 1.25 feet of space between you and the traffic ?? Oh, and your flashlight batteries are almost dead.... and your toolbox is at home... get the picture...