38R turbo recommnedations
#16
07-07-2016, 04:40 AM
CARB, eh? There go a lot of your options for more power. Are you close enough to the border to license the truck in Oregon, Nevada, or Arizona?
Here's the problem: You have XYZ amount of time to get fuel into the cylinder before the piston is in the wrong position for more fuel to add power (about 3 ms at high RPMs). The stock nozzle handles the stock injector capacity, but not a whole lot more. Our injectors are split-shot, which means it wastes precious injection time - but it also improves emissions. If you were to go to say a 160 cc single-shot injector, you would have a lot of grunt at lower RPMs - but I would have to ask others experienced with the International Harvester injectors on stock nozzles about emissions. I have 100% nozzles on that same injector, and there is no way in hell I'd pass any CARB test - the fuel atomization is messed with when you go to bigger nozzles.
As for the turbo - the rebuild is cheaper... if you do it. Much of our advice will fall under the DIY category, so the rules change when you add shop labor. The AFE is a noisy intake and the 38R is a loud blow-hard... you will get your whistle and waw out the front for sure. Since it's for sport, this just might be a "wahoo" thing. If you were to to tow an RV into the mountains for a weekend of truck play, you might be reaching for a drill to evacuate your ear canal to stop the racket in the cab.
I have a 38R and an S&B intake - it's very reasonable in the cab.
38R is a great drop-in, but it can't be rebuilt if it fails. The stocker can be upgraded with the kit timmyboy76 mentioned, and rebuilt in your driveway in the event of failure. If you were going to run 250/200 injectors, you would need to keep your turbo options open. Since CARB is involved, rebuilding the stocker in your driveway is the most cost-effective answer. Once you factor in the mechanic, things get fuzzy.
Without bellowed ups, good luck getting the turbo back on.
Here's the problem: You have XYZ amount of time to get fuel into the cylinder before the piston is in the wrong position for more fuel to add power (about 3 ms at high RPMs). The stock nozzle handles the stock injector capacity, but not a whole lot more. Our injectors are split-shot, which means it wastes precious injection time - but it also improves emissions. If you were to go to say a 160 cc single-shot injector, you would have a lot of grunt at lower RPMs - but I would have to ask others experienced with the International Harvester injectors on stock nozzles about emissions. I have 100% nozzles on that same injector, and there is no way in hell I'd pass any CARB test - the fuel atomization is messed with when you go to bigger nozzles.
As for the turbo - the rebuild is cheaper... if you do it. Much of our advice will fall under the DIY category, so the rules change when you add shop labor. The AFE is a noisy intake and the 38R is a loud blow-hard... you will get your whistle and waw out the front for sure. Since it's for sport, this just might be a "wahoo" thing. If you were to to tow an RV into the mountains for a weekend of truck play, you might be reaching for a drill to evacuate your ear canal to stop the racket in the cab.
I have a 38R and an S&B intake - it's very reasonable in the cab.
38R is a great drop-in, but it can't be rebuilt if it fails. The stocker can be upgraded with the kit timmyboy76 mentioned, and rebuilt in your driveway in the event of failure. If you were going to run 250/200 injectors, you would need to keep your turbo options open. Since CARB is involved, rebuilding the stocker in your driveway is the most cost-effective answer. Once you factor in the mechanic, things get fuzzy.
Without bellowed ups, good luck getting the turbo back on.
#17
07-07-2016, 05:38 PM
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Huntington Beach CA
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CARB, eh? There go a lot of your options for more power. Are you close enough to the border to license the truck in Oregon, Nevada, or Arizona?
Thankd for all the feedback! No, registering out of state is not an option. I'm hours away from every boarder except the Pacific Ocean.
Here's the problem: You have XYZ amount of time to get fuel into the cylinder before the piston is in the wrong position for more fuel to add power (about 3 ms at high RPMs). The stock nozzle handles the stock injector capacity, but not a whole lot more. Our injectors are split-shot, which means it wastes precious injection time - but it also improves emissions. If you were to go to say a 160 cc single-shot injector, you would have a lot of grunt at lower RPMs - but I would have to ask others experienced with the International Harvester injectors on stock nozzles about emissions. I have 100% nozzles on that same injector, and there is no way in hell I'd pass any CARB test - the fuel atomization is messed with when you go to bigger nozzles.
I'm not sure the path I want to go with injectors... I'm early in figuring it out. I knew some day I would want to do the injectors and turbo but each time I start doing the research I stop because of cost. My truck wasn't broke and couldn't understand enough about what I would be best for me or justify the cost. I'm still trying to figure it out and you input is appreciated. No matter what I do it has to be able to pass a visual smog test....
It's a pain with emissions now being visually checked. They just started doing emission inspections 2012 (I believe) and didn't grandfather older trucks like mine. A lot of people out here had to rip off some really nice stuff on their trucks to get smogged every two years. Fortunately I only needed to get the CARB sticker for the AFE. It was dumb luck that I purchased a truck that could pass smog. Most trucked I considered wouldn't have passed because of mods or missing emissions equipment...
Diesel Atomization - YouTube
As for the turbo - the rebuild is cheaper... if you do it. Much of our advice will fall under the DIY category, so the rules change when you add shop labor. The AFE is a noisy intake and the 38R is a loud blow-hard... you will get your whistle and waw out the front for sure. Since it's for sport, this just might be a "wahoo" thing. If you were to to tow an RV into the mountains for a weekend of truck play, you might be reaching for a drill to evacuate your ear canal to stop the racket in the cab.
I have a 38R and an S&B intake - it's very reasonable in the cab.
Thanks for the vid shares. It helps me get a better understanding of the noise and wasn't to bad with your set up. Since it's more play or weekend truck I think I will be OK. I'm a DIY person for home projects but I haven't really worked on more than breaks, oil, and other simple projects with motors since HS. I am not a mechanic and afraid to mess things up or spend 10x the time it would take on the second time around. :-)
55 up a grade and a whistle - YouTube
50 80 Uphill - YouTube
38R is a great drop-in, but it can't be rebuilt if it fails. The stocker can be upgraded with the kit timmyboy76 mentioned, and rebuilt in your driveway in the event of failure. If you were going to run 250/200 injectors, you would need to keep your turbo options open. Since CARB is involved, rebuilding the stocker in your driveway is the most cost-effective answer. Once you factor in the mechanic, things get fuzzy.
Without bellowed ups, good luck getting the turbo back on.
Thankd for all the feedback! No, registering out of state is not an option. I'm hours away from every boarder except the Pacific Ocean.
Here's the problem: You have XYZ amount of time to get fuel into the cylinder before the piston is in the wrong position for more fuel to add power (about 3 ms at high RPMs). The stock nozzle handles the stock injector capacity, but not a whole lot more. Our injectors are split-shot, which means it wastes precious injection time - but it also improves emissions. If you were to go to say a 160 cc single-shot injector, you would have a lot of grunt at lower RPMs - but I would have to ask others experienced with the International Harvester injectors on stock nozzles about emissions. I have 100% nozzles on that same injector, and there is no way in hell I'd pass any CARB test - the fuel atomization is messed with when you go to bigger nozzles.
I'm not sure the path I want to go with injectors... I'm early in figuring it out. I knew some day I would want to do the injectors and turbo but each time I start doing the research I stop because of cost. My truck wasn't broke and couldn't understand enough about what I would be best for me or justify the cost. I'm still trying to figure it out and you input is appreciated. No matter what I do it has to be able to pass a visual smog test....
It's a pain with emissions now being visually checked. They just started doing emission inspections 2012 (I believe) and didn't grandfather older trucks like mine. A lot of people out here had to rip off some really nice stuff on their trucks to get smogged every two years. Fortunately I only needed to get the CARB sticker for the AFE. It was dumb luck that I purchased a truck that could pass smog. Most trucked I considered wouldn't have passed because of mods or missing emissions equipment...
Diesel Atomization - YouTube
As for the turbo - the rebuild is cheaper... if you do it. Much of our advice will fall under the DIY category, so the rules change when you add shop labor. The AFE is a noisy intake and the 38R is a loud blow-hard... you will get your whistle and waw out the front for sure. Since it's for sport, this just might be a "wahoo" thing. If you were to to tow an RV into the mountains for a weekend of truck play, you might be reaching for a drill to evacuate your ear canal to stop the racket in the cab.
I have a 38R and an S&B intake - it's very reasonable in the cab.
Thanks for the vid shares. It helps me get a better understanding of the noise and wasn't to bad with your set up. Since it's more play or weekend truck I think I will be OK. I'm a DIY person for home projects but I haven't really worked on more than breaks, oil, and other simple projects with motors since HS. I am not a mechanic and afraid to mess things up or spend 10x the time it would take on the second time around. :-)
55 up a grade and a whistle - YouTube
50 80 Uphill - YouTube
38R is a great drop-in, but it can't be rebuilt if it fails. The stocker can be upgraded with the kit timmyboy76 mentioned, and rebuilt in your driveway in the event of failure. If you were going to run 250/200 injectors, you would need to keep your turbo options open. Since CARB is involved, rebuilding the stocker in your driveway is the most cost-effective answer. Once you factor in the mechanic, things get fuzzy.
Without bellowed ups, good luck getting the turbo back on.
AND no matter what I do it must have a resonable way to pass CA emission tests every two years.....
thanks again for the input!
#18
07-07-2016, 07:29 PM
All this talk about rebuilding a turbo...... how often has it been posted up when a 38R has failed? The fact is that it's EXTREMELY rare. It's happened a few times, but there's way more people rebuilding the stock turbo compared to anything else. Why? Most people are pushing the stock turbo well beyond it's limits for far too long, so a rebuild is bound to happen.
The stock turbo can barely handle anything over stock injectors. Even stock injectors with the right oil system is just too much for the factory 38.
The 38R is good up until you're approaching 500hp. At that upper limit you're really pushing it to the max at 40+ psi.
The advantage to the 38R is that it works well for anything between stock and close to 500hp, with similar spool times to that of a stock turbo. That and it's a simple drop in with zero modifications required. So for most people shooting for that range, buy the turbo and plop it in place and you're done. It's a strong reliable turbo that will give you a very long service life and has lightning quick response time.
The disadvantage is that it is the ONLY drop in replacement available. Compare that to a T4 mount, where your turbo options become virtually unlimited at that point, and at times those turbos can be a bit cheaper (or all they way up to uber more expensive) than a 38R, barring the cost of swapping from the stock mount to the T4.
In the end the turbo to match depends on the surrounding mods and ultimate power goal. But don't be afraid of the 38R simply because it's not the cheapest to rebuild. It takes a lot of power or terrible maintenance to kill one of them.
Just for reference, my 38R went on in 2007 with around 80'something thousand miles. I sold the truck with 225K on the clock and it still looked and functioned like the very first day I slapped it on. Shortly after that it lived at 350+ hp all the time. Lots of towing, runs down Bandimere, and anything else I could put the truck through. If anyone would have killed a 38R, it would have been me.
The stock turbo can barely handle anything over stock injectors. Even stock injectors with the right oil system is just too much for the factory 38.
The 38R is good up until you're approaching 500hp. At that upper limit you're really pushing it to the max at 40+ psi.
The advantage to the 38R is that it works well for anything between stock and close to 500hp, with similar spool times to that of a stock turbo. That and it's a simple drop in with zero modifications required. So for most people shooting for that range, buy the turbo and plop it in place and you're done. It's a strong reliable turbo that will give you a very long service life and has lightning quick response time.
The disadvantage is that it is the ONLY drop in replacement available. Compare that to a T4 mount, where your turbo options become virtually unlimited at that point, and at times those turbos can be a bit cheaper (or all they way up to uber more expensive) than a 38R, barring the cost of swapping from the stock mount to the T4.
In the end the turbo to match depends on the surrounding mods and ultimate power goal. But don't be afraid of the 38R simply because it's not the cheapest to rebuild. It takes a lot of power or terrible maintenance to kill one of them.
Just for reference, my 38R went on in 2007 with around 80'something thousand miles. I sold the truck with 225K on the clock and it still looked and functioned like the very first day I slapped it on. Shortly after that it lived at 350+ hp all the time. Lots of towing, runs down Bandimere, and anything else I could put the truck through. If anyone would have killed a 38R, it would have been me.
#19
07-07-2016, 08:22 PM
#20
07-08-2016, 05:54 AM
Pocket really knows his stuff there - he tunes his own vehicle.
You won't outgrow a 38R in California - you can't get enough fuel in there to tax it without utterly destroying your emissions.
We're back to the original question - do the IH 160s with stock nozzles pass CARB emissions? I know Tim Hodgson was asking this very question some time back, and I can't remember the answer.
You won't outgrow a 38R in California - you can't get enough fuel in there to tax it without utterly destroying your emissions.
We're back to the original question - do the IH 160s with stock nozzles pass CARB emissions? I know Tim Hodgson was asking this very question some time back, and I can't remember the answer.
#21
07-08-2016, 08:23 AM
IDK if it can be rebuilt yet. Should find out in the next few days. Other than the significant price difference what advantages would a new 38r have for down the road when I do injectors and will the rebuild limit my options later with more mods? This is a very interesting idea if my turbo can be rebuilt and save money. thanks!
I talked to Clay (Riffraff) several months ago and the above referenced kit allows you to maintain the ability to rebuild the journal bearing of your stock turbo while still having the capabilities of the 38R. So it is essentially a rebuildable 38R.
There is another drop-in option that is somewhat popular on the other powerstroke forums: the KC38R
Home page
KC TURBOS KC38R L99-03
I am familiar with people who are running 3 of them and again there are no problems; however, it is not as well established as the 38R. For stock injectors or small upgrades the 38R or the kit 38R is probably a better choice due to design differences. 160/80's-175/80's would probably be the smallest injector that you may want to use with the KC38R as it will arguably handle larger injectors than the 38R based on the feedback from those guys. All three of them have owned both.
There have been issues with a 6.0L turbo from them a good while back; however, there were problems with the VV stocker as well.
After considering all of the above, if you wanted to go to larger injectors long-term then you may consider it as it comes standard with the billet wheel and big head that will cost extra for the 38R.
Based upon feedback, I am considering one when I swap my turbo.
#22
07-08-2016, 01:50 PM
Aw heck, I ran the stock turbocharger with 160/100% injectors for two years and then 250/200% injectors for another 30K miles. It STILL had no play or seal issues when I removed it a few weeks ago.
I didn't beat on it mercilessly though. Five runs down the dragstrip @ 400 RWHP, a couple 400-ish RWHP dyno runs, and a 513 RWHP run......with a sprinkling of towing thrown in for good measure.
Do I condone it, no. Driven with a conscience a stock turbo can live but it won't be a useful pickup.
I didn't beat on it mercilessly though. Five runs down the dragstrip @ 400 RWHP, a couple 400-ish RWHP dyno runs, and a 513 RWHP run......with a sprinkling of towing thrown in for good measure.
Do I condone it, no. Driven with a conscience a stock turbo can live but it won't be a useful pickup.
#24
07-08-2016, 02:08 PM
#25
07-08-2016, 02:12 PM
Join Date: Jul 2016
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Lots of great feedback and THANK YOU all!
I picked up truck this morning and talked to the shop. They don't think I'm loosing the oil in the turbo and think it's through the rings.... Sh#t! I'm not confident in the diagnosis and will have to monitor and log the level of oil loss vrs miles and get another opinion. I was down almost 4 quarts at close to 6k miles. I used full synthetic which I'm learning tends to go through motor quicker in these trucks. Going to change to conv oil this weekend and change it every 3k. Shop recommended closely monitoring oil level and using conv 15-40. I haven't been loosing and mpgs, I watch fairly closely, and no blue smoke is coming out the tailpipe.
I'm going to wait on the turbo until I figure this out. I do like that the 38R is good up to and over 400hp as I don't see myself getting higher than that in CA. And now that my rings might be leaking oil into chamber IDK.... I also like the rebuild kit now as a way to stop the oil through turbo if that's happening for much less.
Why couldn't it just be a easy to confirm worn out turbo? It might still be coming from both the turbo and the rings... or just the rings... or maybe (I hope will all I have) from the turbo. Its a fairly reputable diesel shop so it's likely they have it right and it's the rings, I just don't want to accept that yet....
So much for my Happy Friday....
I picked up truck this morning and talked to the shop. They don't think I'm loosing the oil in the turbo and think it's through the rings.... Sh#t! I'm not confident in the diagnosis and will have to monitor and log the level of oil loss vrs miles and get another opinion. I was down almost 4 quarts at close to 6k miles. I used full synthetic which I'm learning tends to go through motor quicker in these trucks. Going to change to conv oil this weekend and change it every 3k. Shop recommended closely monitoring oil level and using conv 15-40. I haven't been loosing and mpgs, I watch fairly closely, and no blue smoke is coming out the tailpipe.
I'm going to wait on the turbo until I figure this out. I do like that the 38R is good up to and over 400hp as I don't see myself getting higher than that in CA. And now that my rings might be leaking oil into chamber IDK.... I also like the rebuild kit now as a way to stop the oil through turbo if that's happening for much less.
Why couldn't it just be a easy to confirm worn out turbo? It might still be coming from both the turbo and the rings... or just the rings... or maybe (I hope will all I have) from the turbo. Its a fairly reputable diesel shop so it's likely they have it right and it's the rings, I just don't want to accept that yet....
So much for my Happy Friday....
#26
07-08-2016, 02:53 PM
Unless they did a pressure or cylinder leak test, they're throwing darts. If you were losing that much oil through the rings, you'd have some obvious blow-by - and that's easy to check. Flip the oil cap upside-down on the filler neck and see if it hovers there. Hover - good. Bounce off the open hood and land in places unknown - bad.
If you had an OBDII gauge set (OBDII tools link in my signature), we could look at your ICP and IPR numbers. This may very well provide a hint as to where the oil is going - given a good blow-by test.
If you had an OBDII gauge set (OBDII tools link in my signature), we could look at your ICP and IPR numbers. This may very well provide a hint as to where the oil is going - given a good blow-by test.
#27
07-08-2016, 03:45 PM
Join Date: Jul 2016
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Unless they did a pressure or cylinder leak test, they're throwing darts. If you were losing that much oil through the rings, you'd have some obvious blow-by - and that's easy to check. Flip the oil cap upside-down on the filler neck and see if it hovers there. Hover - good. Bounce off the open hood and land in places unknown - bad.
If you had an OBDII gauge set (OBDII tools link in my signature), we could look at your ICP and IPR numbers. This may very well provide a hint as to where the oil is going - given a good blow-by test.
If you had an OBDII gauge set (OBDII tools link in my signature), we could look at your ICP and IPR numbers. This may very well provide a hint as to where the oil is going - given a good blow-by test.
Can I use my Edge Evo to find the ICP and IPR numbers? I don't have the attachment but for $12 I don't mind getting it.
Thank you very much for the help! My figures are crossed...
#29
07-08-2016, 05:15 PM
I agree with Rich that they are throwing darts especially if they did not mention that the injector o-rings could be bad. If one or more are, that could easily explain the loss of oil. Have you replaced a fuel filter? If so, was it black?
Alliant Injector O-rings - Ford 7.3L Powerstroke (94-03) for less than $56 plus shipping and about 6 hours of your time with the assistance you'll receive on here.
Loose injector(s) could be an additional culprit.
ForScan will help you assist us in diagnosing the problem.
As to our trucks using synthetic oil faster than conventional I have to say that I disagree. The truck in my sig uses about a half a quart of Valvoline PBE 5w-40 every 5k miles. The injector o-rings are pristine and the injectors are more than properly torqued.
Alliant Injector O-rings - Ford 7.3L Powerstroke (94-03) for less than $56 plus shipping and about 6 hours of your time with the assistance you'll receive on here.
Loose injector(s) could be an additional culprit.
ForScan will help you assist us in diagnosing the problem.
As to our trucks using synthetic oil faster than conventional I have to say that I disagree. The truck in my sig uses about a half a quart of Valvoline PBE 5w-40 every 5k miles. The injector o-rings are pristine and the injectors are more than properly torqued.
#30
07-08-2016, 05:31 PM
Just to tie up some of the CA smog questions; only CARB approved turbo I know of is the BD Turbo Thruster which is a minimally glorified stock design. Not going to increase your performance envelope by much. IMHO the 38R is the way to go. It's not smog legal but it looks so similar to the stocker that the smog tech prolly won't notice. Tuners and chips are not legal either so they need to be hidden or removed. For my F5 I put it back to stock tune, remove the switch from the A pillar, and hide it in the side vent cover. Same would go for the Hydra I imagine. Banks tuners are smog legal but limited to stock injectors only. Otherwise just keep it looking stock under the hood. All air intakes are legal, tho an ignorant tech may argue the point. Since you have the CARB # for yours it's not an issue. My IC is not legal either but nobody notices it. OTOH my bypass coolant filter made the techs' antennae quiver and they'd start looking for more, so I removed it. Running gold coolant so not really necessary. Injectors are not visible so you can run anything, as long as it passes the snap test which looks for smoke. CA diesel smog test is all about the visual (needs to look stock) and the snap test for smoke. You can get away with hybrids as long as your tuning does not smoke.
I've had older vehicles drip more synthetic oil than conventional, but they did not burn more.
I've had older vehicles drip more synthetic oil than conventional, but they did not burn more.