Hey All,

Need a little help from the diesel braintrust.

I currently drive a 2000 F250 V10 CC. We pull a 27' toy hauler and all the associated toys. Recently we purchased a larger toy and the truck seems to be struggling a bit more with the extra weight. My tow setup is not ideal (6' lift, 35" tires and 4:30 gears) but usually gets the job done, but noticed it was a bit slower this time with the extra 1500#. So my wife and I have discussed upgrading to a diesel. Unfortunately, I don't know sh#t about diesels other than generally how they work.

So, if I'm in the market for a used diesel, are there things I should be looking for, years or engines I should be avoiding? What questions do i need to ask the PO to at least make it sound like I know what I'm doing? Iv'e read through the tech folder a few times, but it still sort of greek to me (at least now).

Any insight I can get would be much appreciated.

 

I love my truck but to be honest, IMO you really need to justify ownership of a diesel and realize the cost of maintenance and everything else before buying one. I don't think anyone could actually prove to me a current diesel is more reliable, more significant fuel efficiency and requires less maintenance then a gas powered truck. The newer diesels are improving and getting better as emission technology improves this could change in the close horizon.

I have seen more gas engine powered trucks since 2008 go high milage 100-150 thousand miles even 200,000 miles with no issues then i have the newer diesels. The era's of buying a diesel with the consumer idea of a truck that will last 300,000 plus miles and great fuel milage left the lot when the 7.3 diesel couldn't meet modern emissions. Im not saying these new diesels won't make it to 300,000 miles, but the cost to get them there won't be cheap which IMO is just sad considering the price tag of new diesel trucks. You could probably purchase two replacement crate 6.8 V10 engines for just what the fuel system cost on a 6.4.

LOL knowing all this id still buy a diesel, simply because it fits my needs, i tow a lot every week and work the truck hard nearly at or over the max GVW 75% of the time. I can justify the high cost of ownership for my application. Now this is just me, some people justify the diesel truck for no other reason then to have a diesel in the driveway. They don't tow anything or travel far and to each his own if you are finacial capable of this luxury why not no different then owning a luxury car. Either way as a potential buyer you need to weight out all aspects of owning a diesel so you will be happy with your purchase presently and for years to come.

Now with all that being said i don't think you will find a gas engine that will out preform a 6.0,6.4 or 6.7 in terms of towing HP and torque. For reasons that it appears you wanting to upgrade i have left the the 7.3 out of this discussion because they where pre 2003.

When looking at any of these diesel powered trucks take time to look the truck over. I would steer away from trucks that have had tuners on them as a first time diesel owner. I would preferably look for trucks where the owner had maintance records and the trucks looked well cared for. Personaly if my truck has a single leak the issues is taken care off regardless the issue. Some people well let things go tell it has to be fixed. IMO this is the wrong approach to a good diesel experience. Inspect the truck for oil leaks. The 6.0 and 6.4 have a bed plate that tends to leak after awhile. This repair involves engine removal to properly reseal it. Something to inspect and be aware of. Listen to how the engine starts and idles. A 6.0 will sound louder of the three but it should sound even no skips or rough idle. When looking at 6.0 powered trucks i would try to arrange a cold start to listen how it sounds. Most injector issues circumvent around a cold start condition. Test drive the truck listen to how it sounds should sound even and drive smooth. How does the coolant look? Is the coolant low? Low coolant could indicate a issue. Inspect around the degass bottle cap(coolant reservoir cap)is there a whitish or residue around the cap. This could indicate an overheat issue or possibly a blown head gasket issue. How does the oil look when the dip stick is pulled. All diesel's generally will be dark in appearance compared to a gas engine but the oil dark black and of a thick feel could indicate poor maintenance. On a 6.4 if the oil is very high(over filled) this could indicate an engine issue or poor maintenance by the owner. These are a few things that can help ensure a good buyer experience not necessarily prevent a bad experience.

Some may argue this but i also look at the overall appearance of the truck. A truck that is beat up generally is not maintained as well. Well kept trucks both inside and out can indicate the owner has maintained it better in my experience.

In addition you could try to pull a car fax on the truck. These can be a useful aide to see any issues the truck has had or what kind of maintenance the truck has had. In addition if possible try to pull oasis report from the dealer. IF looking at a truck at a ford dealer i would request this.

Each engine has its inherent flaws over different years.

The 6.0 diesel is rated at 325 HP and other 560 torque or 570 torque (2005 up)

IF you are looking for a 6.0 i would diffently post this in the 6.0 diesel forum. The knowledge i have is basic. 2003-2004.5 would be the ok and not preference year models. 2004.5 to 2005 would be better and 2006-2007 would be best.

The 6.0 carries a bad name but a lot of the issues can be brought back to poor maintenance which leads to expensive repair. There are things that can be done to improve the reliability. The most know issues with the 6.0 are egr cooler failures, injector issues caused from stiction, head gaskets and a few electric issues driven around the FICM. Thru the years improvements where made thru hardware changes and programing to improve these issues. Most places that work directly on 6.0's including dealers have leanered the issues and know how the diagnose issues quickly and effectively lowering the repair cost compared to when the engine first came out. Of the three engines i have listed above this engine is the most reasonable to currently repair. These engines can get 16+ MPG depending on the setup you have. Good maintenance is key.
Here is some good reading material:

6.0L Power Stroke Owner's Information
Common 6.0L Power Stroke Problems
6.0L Power Stroke Model Year Changes
Bulletproof Your 6.0L Power Stroke

The 6.4 diesel is rated at 350 HP and 650 Torque at the flywheel.

The 6.4 had a much better forthcoming then the 6.0. The birth of the 6.4 was a direct result of more stringent EPA emission controls. The 6.4 in my opinion was a ginny pig for the newer style DPF(DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER) emissions. The 6.4 was the first power stroke to have this type emission equipment. A direct result of these newer emissions resulted in poor fuel economy and additional concerns to proper maintenance. The 6.4 had a completely different fuel system then previous powerstrokes. The 6.4 utilizes a high pressure fuel system at pressures up to 30,000 psi. The result of this new system was better cold weather starts, quieter engine operation, more refined engine HP and torque. When maintained correctly this engine can be reliable. When looking at trucks with this engine i would strongly suggest a ESP(EXTENDED SERVICE PLAN). Not so much that the engine is not reliable the cost to make repairs on this engine can be VERY high. The advance fuel system can be in the upward of 10,000.00 to repair alone. As a result of the DPF system this engine needs the most stringent maintenance plan of powerstroke diesel engines to date. Maintance is not just key it is absolutely a must. The repairs that can stack up will latterly break the bank if you don't not have a ESP or a warranty claim is denied due to lack of maintenance. Review a diesel supplement maintenance manual is also a must to fully understand the works of this engine and how to properly care for it.

To learn the most i would suggest looking at the 6.4 forum. Years to look at and there differences by job build dates.

Job 1 Build dates 01-07 thru 06-07

The first production run had a few issues. The most notable was the flame thrower exhaust a result of variable factors and faulty injectors. The issues was corrected by replacing spec injectors that had been damaged during factory testing.

This year also had more radiator issues due to some design concerns that ford issued a TSB to fix.

There are several other issues with this job build but they seem to be more hit and miss.

I would say this would be a ok year to look at.

JOB 2 ORDER GUIDE UPDATES – Effective on all vehicles built on or after Job 2 (07/30/07 – Subject to change)

• Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) is now standard

• Reverse Camera System (76V) is now optional on XLT, FX4 and Lariat. It includes a reverse camera mounted in tailgate handle bezel and video display contained in interior rear-view mirror. (Requires 90D Power Seats)

• The Harley-Davidson™ Ford F-Series Super Duty® (17H) is back, available on Lariat Crew Cabs. It has a Black monotone exterior or a new unique Black and Vintage Copper two-tone. The interior has black accents, black and dusted copper leather two-tone seats, black and dusted copper leather on the steering wheel, center console lid, and door trim. See the Packaged Options Page for all package contents.

• The Chrome Package (17C) is now available on XLT, FX4 and Lariat SuperCabs and Crew Cabs. It contains a unique chrome billet-style grille, chrome exhaust tip, chrome tow hooks, chrome mirror caps, chrome pickup bed tie-down hooks, and 5" chrome tubular step bars and requires the PowerScope™ Trailer Tow Mirrors.

• The King Ranch with Chrome Package (17R) is now available on Lariat Crew Cabs. It include all the contents of the King Ranch Package, plus chrome exhaust tip, chrome tow hooks, chrome mirror caps, chrome pickup bed tie-down hooks, and 5" chrome tubular step bars.

• The self-dimming rear-view mirror standard on Lariat now includes an integrated compass

• The PowerScope™ Trailer Tow Mirrors (54F) are optional on XLT SuperCab and Crew Cab only and require the Advanced Security Group.

• The Fleet Only Dual Beam Jewel Effect Headlamp option (59R) incl. the underhood service lamp.

• The Advanced Security Group (60F) now includes an auto unlock feature.

This would be a better job build range.

JOB 3 ORDER GUIDE UPDATES – Effective on all
vehicles built on or after Job 3 (01/02/08 – Subject to
change)
• The 60th Anniversary Edition (17A) is now available on XLT
SuperCab and Crew Cabs. It includes a two tone exterior paint
combination in Black with Dark Shadow Grey lower accent or
Dark Shadow Grey with Black lower accent, Chrome billet-style
grille, 5" chrome running boards, chrome exhaust tip, chrome
tow hooks and chrome pickup bed tie-down hooks, chrome
mirror caps, body color front and rear bumpers, accent color
wheel lip moldings, and unqiue 60th Anniversary Edition wheel
ornaments, box decals and badges. The Medium Stone interior
includes Sport Cloth Captain's Chairs, a leather wrapped
steering wheel, unique instrument cluster appliqué, 60th
Anniversary center console badge, serialization plate, and
more. Please see the Packaged Options page for a full list of
package contents.
• There have been changes made to the standard and optional
axles in the Axle Availability chart. Please review the Axle
Availability chart for all axle availability changes.
• The Front License Plate Bracket is no longer standard. The
Front License (153) is available as an option on all trims and is
forced in states where required.
• The Rapid-Heat Supplemental Cab Heater (41A) is now
available with manual transmission.
• The PowerScope™ Trailer Tow Mirrors (54F) are now available
on XLT Regular Cab (require the Advanced Security Group).
• A Winter Front Grille Cover is now standard and only available
with the 6.4L diesel engine in the following states: AK, CO, ID,
IA, ME, MI, MN, MT, NH, NY, ND, SD, VT, WI, WY.
LATEST ORDER GUIDE UPDATES
• The 3.73 Limited Slip Axle (X3L) is now available on F-350
SRW Pickups with the 6.4L diesel engine, automatic
transmission and 17" or 18" wheels.
Here is some reading material.

This job build range would be the best to look for 2009 forward had some neat features that where not available on earlier trucks.

The fuel milage of the 6.4 powered trucks was probably the biggest disappointment to powerstroke community. You can expect to respectably get 9-11 MPG in town and 12-14 MPG HWY depending on the rear end ratios you get. There are after market options to remove the emission equipment which can result an improvement of 2-3 mpg to the above numbers. As a result such modifications can result in the dealer voiding you warranty or even an aftermarket ESP company voiding your warranty. On the aftermarket scene the 6.4 tuned only has produced the most hp of any production engine of the big three. Some people have seen as much as 550+ hp to the wheels with only a tune. In comparison the factory HP to the wheels is around 270-295HP.

I currently have a Job 1 6.4 and it has been my favorite power stroke to date.

Here is some additional information to look at on the 6.4
6.4L Power Stroke Specs

This brings us to the 6.7 power stroke. The first of the powerstroke engines to be built in house by ford.

The 6.7 ratings are range from 390HP to 440HP and 735TQ to 860TQ depending on the year and truck application.

To learn the most about this engine i would suggest looking at the 6.7 forum .

The single two most advancements in this year model IMO where the emission system highly improved over the 6.4 and the newer 6 speed trans mission. The combination of the 6.7's ability to build low end torque on a solid curve and the transmission ability to lock the converter in any gear along with more refined emissions resulted in much better fuel milage in comparison to the 6.4 engine.

The 2015 has the highest available power ratings for this engine. With refinements to the turbo charger and other engine components along with transmission upgrades has made this the most power power stroke to date.

The longevity and issues of this engine would be hard to address as there are simply not a large number of high milage engines yet so time will tell. Most people i have talked to seem to be really happy with this engine. The issues i know to date are valve failures in early 2011 model sold in late 2010 thru 2012 and an inherent sensitivity to ANY water in the fuel. The 6.7 is probably the most susceptible to engine damage caused from water in fuel with the 6.4 running close for second.

My personal experience in milage was 15.5 MPG in town and 17.8 MPG HWY.

Here is some additional info on the 6.7
6.7L Power Stroke Specs

Of the years available i would look at early 2011-2012 as ok and 2013-2014 as better. The 2015 could be the best but again there simply are not enough miles to prove the changes have made the 2015 more reliable or better then previous years IMO.

Here are my sole opinions on the engines i have discussed :

If i had to pick between the engines above i would probably pick the 6.7, then the 6.4, then the 6.0 it terms of factory performance.

In terms of an engine that would be more user friendly to work on i would go 6.0 then 6.4 then 6.7. The 6.0 probably has the largest network of current information on DIY repairs and fixes. The 6.4 is slightly harder to diagnostic without the proper diagnostic equipment. Most major repairs result in the cab having to be lifted off for both quality of repair and efficiency. I don't know enough about the 6.7 to warrant how hard they are to work on i can reasonability assume they are at least as hard to diagnose or harder then the 6.4 . I haven't had the chance to mess with one yet.

In terms of milage and efficiency i would go 6.7 then 6.0 then 6.4.

In terms of higher cost to repair i would go 6.7 then 6.4 then 6.0

In terms of aftermarket performance i would say 6.4 then 6.7 then 6.0.

I really can not emphasize the importance of good maintance if you decide to purchase a diesel and have a good experience. Some of this is factual information and some is opinion so please take your time and research all this yourself to make the best informed decision. A little more time and research will result in you being happy for years to come.

If anyone sees some mistakes made I'm not perfect so don't be afraid to point them out so the OP has the best most reliable information. I generalized a lot of information here as the post is already long...lol theres alot more info out there Hope this helps.

 

"Now with all that being said i don't think you will find a gas engine that will out preform a 6.0,6.4 or 6.7 in terms of towing HP and torque. For reasons that it appears you wanting to upgrade i have left the the 7.3 out of this discussion because they where pre 2003."

Sanddemon, REALLY appreciate the info, obviously a lot to digest. The above quote is exactly why we're looking at an upgrade. We tow out to the desert about once a month all winter (toy hauler with SXS & quads) and out to the river in summer (boat & jet ski).

I've done a bunch of research over the last couple of days, and your post just kind of pulls it all together. I know they're maintenance hogs and have to be meticulously maintained to get the reliability out of them (which is right up my alley) but just wasn't sure about engines and years.

Based on what I've read and what you've said I'm either going with an '03 7.3L or an '05 to '07 6.0L (that's all the budget will allow). That being said, is one better than the other form a towing standpoint?

Again, thanks SO much for the info, really appreciated.

 

6.0 will be a better choice. Far better transmission, suspension, integrated brake controller and more power

Sent from my Telegraph using IB AutoGroup

 

Knowing what i know here is my opinion based on what you have shared. TBC(Trailer brake controller) is not a nessary feature or a deal breaker in my opinion. I actually think the TBC is over rated there are a lot of top notch aftermarket controllers available now but not available when these truck originally came out. The 7.3 has a 4r110 trans they are known to get hot towing, a good upgrade would be a trans cooler off a 6.0. The trans behind the 6.0 is a 5r110 a 5 speed vs the 4 speed behind the 7.3 if you go auto. The 5r110 is a near bullet proof trans found on the 6.0. The 5r110 pulls well and does not appear to have a lot of issues when taking care of. If you go manual ZF 6 , the 6 speed trans would be the same in other truck to my knowledge.


Most reliable= 7.3
Best milage= 6.0/7.3
DIY(Do it yourself repairs) 7.3 the 6.0 is equally easy but the chances are much less of a cab off repair on the 7.3.
Power and performance stock= 6.0
Cheapest to work on= 7.3
Cheaper truck to buy= 7.3
More available features and creature comforts on the truck= 6.0
Least emission equipment= 7.3

While it appears the 7.3 is the choice it may be hard to find a low milage 7.3 between 02-03. These trucks are generally do for injectors around 200,000-230,000 miles. If done yourself the cost would be around 1400-1600 for parts. If you had a shop it should be about 5-6 hrs shop rate. Another issue these trucks had was the turbo. The turbos have a bushing vs a ball bearing i have seen the turbos go out as early as 65,000-85,000 miles just depends on use. Would cost around 1200-1500 for a set depending if you went stock or aftermarket. The 7.3 power stroke powered trucks probably have the highest running miles to date. My personal experience i have seen a 7.3 run 400,000 miles before overhaul with minor issues. I have seen online people claim a lot more then that but that is something you can research yourself. Just some things to consider.

The 6.0 stock would out tow the 7.3 simply because of HP and TQ ratings. It would be easier to find a lower milage 6.0. Even the 6.0 could have an injector issue as soon as 100,000 miles if the previous owner had poor maintenance and didn't change the oil correctly. The issue around the 6.0 injectors is generally stiction not wear. The cost to replace the injectors is 1600-1900 for a set if done your self. If a shop does it maybe 5-6 hrs shop rate. Something to consider as i would be a little more cautious about how well the engine was maintained. Considering the years your looking at i would look at a 05.5-07 early 05's still had the STC fitting on the HPOP that can cause headaches after 05.5 theres a good chance its already updated. the 06-07 seem to be the best 6.0 production years that i have seen. As stated above the 6.0 has coil springs in the front vs leaf springs on the front of the 7.3. The 6.0 does have a slightly better ride quality.

You will see the price for injectors varies this is do to aftermarket pricing the higher end would be OEM ford. I would always stick with OEM ford injectors not aftermarket reman being a first time diesel owner. Just a headache you don't want to ruin your first time experience. Im not saying that all aftermarket are bad its just another decision that generally becomes more of debate between who has had good luck and who hasn't .

I would also consider the milage of automatic transmissions in either truck. Much over 120,000-150,000 if nothing has been done you could be near a trans overhaul which is around 2500-3500 for the 4r110(7.3) or 3500-4500 5r110 (6.0) for a heavy duty trans and torque converter.

I would try to arrange a cold start when looking at either truck. A cold start can tell you a lot about possible hidden issues. Both trucks should start well and idle well cold, not choppy, followed by a decent test drive that gets the truck up to operating temps so you can also hear it hot. Once hot shot the engine off and try to restart, should start well. Not starting well hot could indicate an issue as well.

Just some additional things to think about. Hope this helps.

 

Definitely helps, thanks so much for all your input. Currently targeting an '06 or '07 6.0L, and now know what to look for (and what not to look for) on these trucks.

Thanks to all (especially SANDDEMEON) for the advise and guidance, you guys are exactly the reason i keep coming back here.

 

Any reason for not changing the tire size or gear ratio on your current rig?

 

Mileage would tank worse than it already does due to the lift and tires. Plus we're starting to push the max towing capacity.

 

1st, maybe get a tuner to re-program the shift points?

Then, what about a mild turbocharger kit?
Nothing insane, thats going to take a complete rebuild, just a little bit of boost like maybe 5 psi or so, to get an extra 50-80 hp ?
Looks like a few kits from the 3000 to 5000$ range.

If you do the diesel route, I would go the 6.0 route, and do studs and deletes.
I had a 7.3, and I loved it, but the 2003+ trucks are nicer in many ways.

 

UPDATE!

Wanted to come back and thank everyone here for their input, guidance and opinions. I had to learn a lot in a short time, and you gents were a big part of that.

So, based on what i learned here, we (the wife and I) are now the proud owners of an '06 F250 Crew Cab long bed PSD with the 6.0L engine. It only has 76K miles on it and I feel it will fill the bill quite nicely.

Thanks again all, now onto the 6.0L forum, LOL

 

Congrats on the new truck bud Im sure you will enjoy it!!