Just when I think I have it all figured out I get a wrench in everything.
Probably the thing I've posted the most on here is trying to figure out what powertrain to put in my truck. I have a lot of "special" needs with this build that has made it a nightmare to figure it all out. Thankfully it resulted in me researching all the options quite a bit so I don't have to start all over with my plan.


The plan was to go with a Cummins 6bt. A great engine all around, great power, mpg, reliability, ect. And it was a great plan, until I factored in my location. I live in north Wyoming, it's mountain country, and though a turbo'd diesel is great for trips up in the mountains, it has a major draw back for daily driving here, two actually. The first is winter, we see -20, it's not that a diesel wouldn't start in that, it's how long it takes it to warm up to not be damaged. Now a 10 minute process doesn't seem like much till I get to my second point and that is everything in this town is literally a 5 minute drive away. A truck that takes 10 minutes to warm up to do a 5 minute trip doesn't get driven around here. Worse off is you have to keep it running when you go in somewhere or you have to go through the process again.

Another thing about the small town is diesel engines where not made for short trips. After researching it out it's damaging to them, quite a bit actually, they need to be worked very hard to be in their comfort zone. I guess this is why you don't see 1/2 ton trucks with diesel in them as you need to be working them very hard with towing. This truck isn't a tow rig, it's a daily driver. And around here that's different than in a city, my commute anywhere is 5 minutes with no freeway driving.

So it looks like I'm going back down the road of a gas engine. Least they have less maintenance anyways, lol.

I will probably end up with a 460 in it. My thought is with the 37" tires I'll have, having the strong low end torque should help a great deal with daily driving it. It would also keep it from having any power issues no matter what I was doing. The only problem is the MPG, but after a whole lot of research I think in all honesty I will end up with 15mpg no matter what engine I put in. The 460 is bigger and will eat more gas but will need less RPM to move things. A 351 yields about the same mpg with less power, a 302 is too small and would negate all of it's better mpg with it's size when it has to rev higher to move the truck.

Modern engines like the Triton will actually yield my truck about the same mpg around 15mpg I recon. I might do a little better but it has several things about it that require specialized equipment to work on that I don't have nor would benefit from owning. Other options like the 390 might get me 1 or two more mpg but have less power and less transmission options (does no good to spend thousands to save $10 at the pump once a month). Only other route I might look into is a V10 Triton, but in the end I think a 460 would work better for me.

So at the end of the day I have discovered why diesels are not found in daily drivers. With the cost of diesel rising above gasoline (and it doesn't look like it will ever be cheaper again), the cost of maintenance (way more than gas, double to quadruple), initial cost (more than double), and everything else special about it that just makes it a daily driver PITA, gas wins out. The better mpg would never come into play to be worth it, the cost of maintenance with using it for short trips would greatly out weigh the money saved with better mpg (and you don't get that mpg unless it's running how it should).

In the end I recon it would have cost me probably $1000 more a year just to have a diesel over a large V8. Go figure.


I just thought I would share this in case anyone is looking into running a diesel. They work great for larger trucks, but heck I'll be coming in at less than 5,000lbs, and that's just too light to benefit from a diesel. Maybe if I still have the 9,000lbs of compressor on the back of this thing still, lol. It took me forever to come across this and it would have been helpful to know before I researched everything out for months, lol. Whole lot of information being repeated, not a whole lot of first hand stuff especially about a few critical things. Everyone knows what the diesels can do, no one talks about what it costs to make them do anything less that towing.

 

When I bought my F250 back in 2001 I looked at the gas v diesel situation too. As I was looking at trucks on the lot, I noticed that the Diesel was $5K more plus the tranny was more. I also thought about the higher maint. cost too, but worried about the pulling power as I pulled my 7,000lb camper over the WV mountains a few times a year. Then I spotted the one I bought with the V10, which was a $600 option. With about 110K on it, I have no regrets. Of course I am sure that one of these days I will have to replace the original battery in the truck, but some things do wear out.

 

I'm putting a cummins 6bt in the new old truck that I'm building, I had to put the motor behind the cab so i could use the radiator and air cooler. Like the fool I am I got a 24 value motor if i can rewire this to work it will be miracle..

 

JMO, but unless you're working the truck diesel is overkill. On the other hand, if you actually are working the truck daily, diesel is the only way to go. And I emphasize work such as pulling. You can't load a pickup enough to work it. I've owned 390s, 460s, and one V10, and one 7.3. They're all good, they're all strong. JMO, your mileage may vary.

 

While others may vary, I will add this. I had a 69 429 and an 84 460 in a couple of 4x4 trucks I had. I never got more than 10 mpg out of either - ever, and that was on the open road. Generally 8-9 mpg overall. Love the power, the mpg not so much.

 

I once had an 85 F250 with a 460. I got 10mpg empty or pulling a 16' trailer with a load of cabinets. I never got more than 10mpg in it. It would pull, had loads of power and lasted a long time.

 

I may have said something about this in the past, and forgive my "CRS" if i did already.
At 5000lbs. A 4bt with a turbo would be a possibility. But I am not against whatever you decide. I feel your pain on engine decisions. I am off my 5.8 and on with the 5.0 EFI

I would think a 5.0 would pull 5000lbs around fine? Especially on the road.
What ratio on the axles? i know you have beat this discussion to death, but you brought it up again! LOL
You are talkin an F150/250 4x4 wt. if you were gonna pull a heavy trailer I would think 460, but...
I'm just thinking out loud..but I will shut up now.

 

Stephen, have you figured out how far you drive yearly? If you drive 10,000 miles a year the difference between 10mpg and 13mmpg is about $1200 per year or $23 per week at $5/gal which isn't a big difference. You could have the 460 and pull/carry anything you want. It would also take less right foot to get you moving unless you have a heavy one!
Brian

 

I think in the end you'll be happy with the 460. It's everything you said. As stated above, love the power, the mpg not so much. 9-10 is what I get, and if 90% of your driving will be short trips around a small town, it's not going to matter much.

If you're concerned about the winter cold, I would highly recommend investing in an engine heater of some sort. I used one known as a tank heater, which is like a percolator you put in the heater hose system and warms the water. The warm water circulates through the system through convection and has the temp up to about 100F already when you get in, giving you a pretty good head start on warming up, and makes the engine a lot easier to turn over and start when the temps dip below freezing. The heater blows somewhat luke warm from the get-go and the windshield stays half defrosted. Then you start the engine and it gets better from there.

 

Yeah the mileage I actually put on a car is one of those things that helps the 460 seem like a great idea. I think I average maybe 2000 miles a year on our most driven car, once and a while we drive up to Billings which adds about 250 miles a round trip, that's about it, and I wouldn't want to use this truck for that, it's for here and the mountains. The most miles I put on it normally is when I just go for a drive and at most it's 20 miles. I've always wanted a big block, there is just something about the way a huge engine moves in a truck, the way it sounds, like it has nothing to prove, a dragon under the hood rather than a chipmunk with a microphone.

So if I drive only about 2000 miles in it a year, and get 10mpg, with gas prices around $3.50, that's $700, $13.50 a week. Yeah I think it would most certain be worth it.


I thought about putting in say a 5.0, we have one in our 1989 Bronco, but I grew up watching my father always wish it had more power, he always regretted not buying the bigger engine version. Since I'll be running 1 ton axles, so a Dana 60 up front and a D70 or D80, or Ford 1 ton axle in the rear and 37" tires (verse the 31" ones on the Bronco), that a 5.0 would be greatly under powered. Fine for driving empty, but once I start to take it up a dirt road in the mountains, it's going to feel very weak. A thing to remember is you loose power the higher the altitude, the air is thinner.


I think a lot of my obsession over mpg was being afraid I couldn't afford to drive it. For a long while I thought I was moving from here, even being up in say just Billings, MT requires a great deal more miles for driving daily. Not as bad as say living in Denver, but still quite a bit more than this town. I think it's just one of those mind-sets I've had trouble getting over, I wouldn't want to put all this work down just to have to have the truck sit because I couldn't afford to drive it. You hear people say that a lot with 460 trucks, but they always live somewhere with a lot of miles driven each day.

Bit ironic that I was thinking Diesel, as though I would get better mpg, maybe even twice as good, I would be spending a whole lot of money maintaining it. And I think that's one of those things that gets over looked when choosing diesel or gasoline for these old trucks. Sure a brand new one it might not be such an issue, but I wouldn't be putting in a 2012 model Cummins if I did, so what's the point in trying to figure out if technology made it ok enough for short trips and cold weather. Besides, when I stop to think about it, though we have a lot of diesels around here, I can't remember ever seeing them in the winter unless they had a horse trailer behind them... or a 20' billow of black smoke pouring out of it.

I guess it's a good thing this is taking me forever, otherwise I would have been long in process with a 'bad' idea!

 

What about a 300 inline 6? Hell it's basically a gas powered diesel engine. They even came in F600's in the 60's & 70's. They are reliable, simple to work on with some modifications they can put out plenty of power.

 

There is no reason a diesel powered vehicle can't be a daily driver, I currently have 2 that are. It's true that a diesel is happier when worked, but they are not "damaged" by light use either. One of the things that you point out would make me want a diesel even more, lack of use. Diesel fuel doesn't go "bad" over time like gasoline does. I like the fact that I can leave my old 6.9 powered F250 sitting for 6-8 months and not have to worry about the "carb" being gummed up from rotten gasoline when I need to haul a load of firewood.
I have owned several 460 powered trucks, your estimate of 15 MPG is way over what you will see in reality. For the most part, I usually saw 7-8 MPG in town and at best 12 MPG on the highway. In a lifted 4X4 with 37'' tires, I would expect more like 8-9 MPG at best.
Also, a diesel doesn't have to be warmed up for 5-10 minutes just for a run to the corner store. I start mine, let it run for maybe a minute to circulate the oil and pull out. Now that being said, I wouldn't take off with a heavy load cold, but I won't do that to a gasser either.
As for the maintenance costs, the oil filter cost slightly more than a gasser, there is usually twice as much oil there too, but the oil change interval is about double. A gasser has an ignition system to be maintained, a diesel has none. My 95 Dodge 3500 with a 5.9 Cummins has 356K miles on it and the engine has never been touched. It still has the original injectors in it, how many gassers will run that many miles on one set of spark plugs?
I'm sure there are other reasons why someone should or shouldn't go with a gasser or diesel, most are just personal preference, but there are many myths about diesels that need to be debunked before making that decision.
I have been a diesel mechanic, working on mostly heavy trucks and eqiupment for over 30 years, so I have heard it all. My fleet, except for my 53 ****** Jeep, has been diesel for the last 15 years. I'll never go back to gas!

 

Debunking all the myths around everything I think is what is taking this process so long. The problem I think comes from having a lot of people repeating things they've heard but not having real world experience with it. I'm just as guilty as anyone else, 99% of the time it's helpful, that other 1% is what I seem to be working in at the moment, lol. It's also a problem finding out if someone with real experience with it is right about it or not.

For example my real world experience with a Y-block is that it leaks a lot. If that's all I said it could get out there that they are leaky engines when the truth is mine leaks because of a set of problems that came up that have nothing to do with the engine itself. But if that part is left out, a semi-truth just gets repeated.

I will say as much as I would love to do a Big block in my truck, that I could also put one in my '67 Mustang and maybe happier with that than in my truck. What I need to do is research how the Cummins 6BT 5.9 12v does with constant short trips and especially cold weather. Everything we drive normally has a block heater on it, and usually we have to warm up a car before driving it in the winter simply because it sucks trying to drive in a car that's frozen on the inside and the windshield keeps frosting over.

Now if I can find a way/truth that makes it where I can use this Cummins, as much as I love a big block V8, I'm going to. I think it would keep the truck from being restricted in any field. My fear of it is finding that short trips and harsh weather will end up causing expensive problems, this would be my first diesel, I simply don't know about them in the real world, let alone for my use.

So I'll do some research and ask some people in town. Problem is I want to hear from people with the engine I want to run, not one of the new computer controlled ones.

Ah, it never ends, lol.