I have an 88 f250 351w that shakes violently when i hit the brakes. If i come to a stop slowly they arent bad bad if i have to stop fast the whole truck shakes. I installed new rotors and drums and it didnt help at all. Any ideas?

 

New tie rod ends.

Jason

 

Do i replace outer an inner?

 

Don't just throw parts at it. Jack up the front of the truck and push and pull on the tire at 3 and 9. If there's play there is an issue in the steering. Have a buddy shake the tire while you look at the steering linkage. Only one wheel off the ground at a time. My truck had the same issue. Repair shop said it was in the steering somewhere(cant remember) and wanted $1200 to fix it. I started to look around only to find one of the metal pins on the caliper had wiggled loose. Pushed it in and it was fixed.

 

How exactly would bad tie rod ends cause my truck to shake when braking?

 

I had the same problem on my '93 F250. It shook violently under medium to heavy braking (steering wheel would go between 11 and 1 in my hands). With the truck on the ground, I could twist the tie rods. I just replaced them all and had an alignment done. When it was done, the tie rods were tight, and there was no more shake'n'brake.

The reason it happens while braking is that when you brake, you load the front suspension, setting up an oscillation that takes advantage of the play in the tie rod ends.

Jason

 

Should be pretty stiff. IF it feels loose or easy to move replace it. If you have never replaced them on your truck might as well replace them all. I imagine they're all going to be worn out. I know mine were after 300k miles. I had the shakes bad at one point were I could not even get up to 40mph with out the front end shaking to death.

Replace the Ball Joints, Inner and Outer Tie Rod ends, the Center Link , Gear Box and the Pittman Arm. That will take all the play out of the steering wheel and you should be able to get a front end alignment with out having any issues.

I also recommend putting in a Camber kit to adjust the camber if not all ready done. These parts are just an example for a 92' f150



Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2641998
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: Plus or Minus 3/4 Degree,Cogged Head
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2641996
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: Plus or Minus 1/4 Degree,Cogged Head
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2641988
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: OEM Type,Plus or Minus 2 Degree,Pinch Bolt And Nut Not Included
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2641983
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: OEM Type,Plus or Minus 3/4 Degree,Pinch Bolt And Nut Not Included
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2642792
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: Camber Plus or Minus 7/8 Degree,Full Rotational Type
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2643950
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: Adjustable,Plus Or Minus 0 To 4 Degrees Camber / Caster,Can Be Set At True 0 Degree
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2641986
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts
IMPORTANT INFO: OEM Type,Plus or Minus 1 1/2 Degree,Pinch Bolt And Nut Not Included
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2642002
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IMPORTANT INFO: OEM Type,Plus or Minus 1 3/4 Degree,Cogged Head
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2642791
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IMPORTANT INFO: 1 1/2 Degree,Full Rotational Type
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Camber / Caster Bushing - Front Susp Part Number: NCP 2641989
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Thanks a lot guys. I will jack up the truck and check it out tomarrow. I didnt mention that there is a lot of free play in the steering wheel and anything over 50mph the truck shakes. So the plan is new tie rod ends and then get an alignment. Hopefully that will fix the problem.

 

The first question the alignment people will ask you is, "what else have you done to the truck that would effect the alignment?"

The alignment technician responds, "O' sorry sir but we could not get her aligned. The ball joints and gear box are just to worn. They further respond back, "Sir, since you did not replace those we could not align the truck properly and can not guarantee she will drive straight." I have had that said to me about a dozen times.....

MAKE sure you ask to see the print out of the alignment. I have had my truck since 92'and those alignment people are lazy and never get it right.

Ill see if I can find the specs you are looking for.

 

WARNING!! DO NOT USE THESE SPECIFICATIONS! ONLY USE THEM IF YOU KNOW THEY ARE RIGHT FOR YOU!

Camber(Positive/Negative):

WHAT IS CAMBER?

Camber is the angle of the wheel relative to vertical, as viewed from the front or the rear of the car. If the wheel leans in towards the chassis, it has negative camber; if it leans away from the car, it has positive camber (see next page). The cornering force that a tire can develop is highly dependent on its angle relative to the road surface, and so wheel camber has a major effect on the road holding of a car. It's interesting to note that a tire develops its maximum cornering force at a small negative camber angle, typically around neg. 1/2 degree. This fact is due to the contribution of camber thrust, which is an additional lateral force generated by elastic deformation as the tread rubber pulls through the tire/road interface (the contact patch). Camber has a direct effect on tire wear patterns.





Caster(Positive/Negative):

Caster is the angle to which the steering pivot axis is tilted forward or rearward from vertical, as viewed from the side. If the pivot axis is tilted backward (that is, the top pivot is positioned farther rearward than the bottom pivot), then the caster is positive; if it's tilted forward, then the caster is negative.



Positive caster tends to straighten the wheel when the vehicle is traveling forward, and thus is used to enhance straight-line stability. The mechanism that causes this tendency is clearly illustrated by the castering front wheels of a shopping cart (above). The steering axis of a shopping cart wheel is set forward of where the wheel contacts the ground. As the cart is pushed forward, the steering axis pulls the wheel along, and since the wheel drags along the ground, it falls directly in line behind the steering axis. The force that causes the wheel to follow the steering axis is proportional to the distance between the steering axis and the wheel-to-ground contact patch-the greater the distance, the greater the force. This distance is referred to as "trail."

Due to many design considerations, it is desirable to have the steering axis of a car's wheel right at the wheel hub. If the steering axis were to be set vertical with this layout, the axis would be coincident with the tire contact patch. The trail would be zero, and no castering would be generated. The wheel would be essentially free to spin about the patch (actually, the tire itself generates a bit of a castering effect due to a phenomenon known as "pneumatic trail," but this effect is much smaller than that created by mechanical castering, so we'll ignore it here). Fortunately, it is possible to create castering by tilting the steering axis in the positive direction. With such an arrangement, the steering axis intersects the ground at a point in front of the tire contact patch, and thus the same effect as seen in the shopping cart casters is achieved.

The tilted steering axis has another important effect on suspension geometry. Since the wheel rotates about a tilted axis, the wheel gains camber as it is turned. This effect is best visualized by imagining the unrealistically extreme case where the steering axis would be horizontal-as the steering wheel is turned, the road wheel would simply change camber rather than direction. This effect causes the outside wheel in a turn to gain negative camber, while the inside wheel gains positive camber. These camber changes are generally favorable for cornering, although it is possible to overdo it.

For whatever reason the Super Duties including the Excursions seem to be effected more so than other types of vehicles by caster settings. On vehicles that have had larger tire and suspension changes one of the rules for setting up caster was with the use of caster shims to set the caster as far positive as possible while still being able to keep camber with in the tolerance specs as needed to get good straight line tracking over road surfaces.

Caster has no effect on tire wear patterns



Item Part Number Description
1 — Positive Caster
2 — True Vertical
3 — Steering Axis

Toe (In/Out):


When a pair of wheels is set so that their leading edges are pointed slightly towards each other, the wheel pair is said to have toe-in. If the leading edges point away from each other, the pair is said to have toe-out. The amount of toe can be expressed in degrees as the angle to which the wheels are out of parallel, or more commonly, as the difference between the track widths as measured at the leading and trailing edges of the tires or wheels. Toe settings affect three major areas of performance: tire wear, straight-line stability and corner entry handling characteristics.



For minimum tire wear and power loss, the wheels on a given axle of a car should point directly ahead when the car is running in a straight line. Excessive toe-in or toe-out causes the tires to scrub, since they are always turned relative to the direction of travel. Too much toe-in causes accelerated wear at the outboard edges of the tires, while too much toe-out causes wear at the inboard edges.






So if minimum tire wear and power loss are achieved with zero toe, why have any toe angles at all? The answer is that toe settings have a major impact on directional stability. The illustrations at right show the mechanisms involved. With the steering wheel centered, toe-in causes the wheels to tend to roll along paths that intersect each other. Under this condition, the wheels are at odds with each other, and no turn results.

When the wheel on one side of the car encounters a disturbance, that wheel is pulled rearward about its steering axis. This action also pulls the other wheel in the same steering direction. If it's a minor disturbance, the disturbed wheel will steer only a small amount, perhaps so that it's rolling straight ahead instead of toed-in slightly. But note that with this slight steering input, the rolling paths of the wheels still don't describe a turn. The wheels have absorbed the irregularity without significantly changing the direction of the vehicle. In this way, toe-in enhances straight-line stability.

If the car is set up with toe-out, however, the front wheels are aligned so that slight disturbances cause the wheel pair to assume rolling directions that do describe a turn. Any minute steering angle beyond the perfectly centered position will cause the inner wheel to steer in a tighter turn radius than the outer wheel. Thus, the car will always be trying to enter a turn, rather than maintaining a straight line of travel. So it's clear that toe-out encourages the initiation of a turn, while toe-in discourages it.




With toe-in (left) a deflection of the suspension does not cause the wheels to initiate a turn as with toe-out (right).


The toe setting on a particular car becomes a tradeoff between the straight-line stability afforded by toe-in and the quick steering response promoted by toe-out. Nobody wants their street car to constantly wander over tar strips-the never-ending steering corrections required would drive anyone batty.

The super duty needs zero to a very slight amount of toe in and only needs to be increased from the ideal of zero if needed to increase straight line stability to account for suspension wear.


Thrust Angle:

Setting that effects the rear axle tracking of the vehicle. How the rear wheels track in relation to the front wheels while traveling straight down a flat road surface.


It misalignment causes what is know as dog tracking. Driving down a highly crowned road can give the appearance of dog tracking.


1 is front
2 is rear


Over all with the Super Duty and Excursion left and right specification for each of these settings should be set to equal specifications. Ideal the differnce between right and left for Camber, Caster and toe should be zero meaning left and right will have the same degree settings for each. Example: If Caster is set to 3.5 left it should also be set for 3.5 on the right side.


These modern computer alignment machines are built for dummies to align anything to within halfway decent specs, That's why they always give such a wide range for the tech to shoot for. There is no such thing as a PERFECT alignment taught anymore. It is extremely important to set it where the factory says to, meaning the same on either side and to the ideal angle


Specifications for ideal alignment settings and allowable tolerance to correct road tested issues:

(In other words the specs should be set to these specific setting or as close as humanly possible and only changed inside the tolerances if those specific setting do not produce a good performing alignment.)


Excursion F250 F350 4x4:

Caster:______Left + 3.5°____Right +3.5°____Tolerance +1.5°- +5.5°____Left to right split ideal 0° never more than 1°+/-

Camber:______Left + 0.25°____Right +0.25°____Tolerance -.75°- +1.25°____Left to right split ideal 0° never more than 1°+/-

Toe:_______Left 0°____Right 0°_____Tolerance 0°-0°_____Left to right variation .03° +/- .25°

Dogtracking: Maximum (Centerline of front tires compared to centerline of rear tires) 1.2" or 30mm

Clear Vision: (Steering Wheel Alignment) -0.4° ± 3°




Excursion F250 F350 4x2:

Caster:_______Left + 4.0°_____Right 4.0°____Tolerance +2.0°- +6.0°____Left to right split ideal 0° never more than 1°+/-

Camber:______Left + 0.62°_____Right +0.62°____Tolerance -0.38°- +1.68°_____Left to right split ideal 0° never more than 1°+/-

Toe:______Left 0°____Right 0°_____Tolerance 0°-0°_____Left to right variation .03° +/- .25°

Dogtracking: Maximum (Centerline of front tires compared to centerline of rear tires) 1.2" or 30mm

Clear Vision: (Steering Wheel Alignment) -0.4° ± 3°



Some points on how they should adjust camber and caster settings. This is directly from Ford Mechanics Manual

Caster if its need to be adjusted should be by the use of Caster shims that are placed between the leaf springs and the axle. This is the preferred method as opposed to aftermarket adjustable camber caster bushings.

Camber should be adjusted by the bushing.

Many alignment techs will likely want to take the fast way with a combo bushing for obvious reason. All I can say is the above method is what the factory states as the recommended way to make those adjustments and the those that seemed to have considerable knowledge and experince that weighed in seemed to agree. The adjustable bushing seems to be more difficult to properly dial in from what I took away from it. Kind of a easier short cut method it seemed to me. But the important thing it getting the correct caster and having it stay put which ever method is used. I know both ways work. When ever they do replace the caster shim( wedge) the u bolts and nuts should be replaced as well. This also applies if they have to add a flat shim to adjust for lean from a sagging spring on one side.


Another thing to also make note of with the Excursions is they really do need rear sway bars. If yours does not have one I would personally consider it mandatory to a proper handling Excursion. Further it seems that many do have issues that have been tracked down to the steering box. Adjusting for lash play from what I can tell is a temporary fix and you will eventually need a new one. The red head steering boxes seem to be the most highly recommended and do a fantastic job in greatly improving wander from constant correction caused by loose steering gears. One last thing on this area. It was also found that the upper steering shaft which is what I am calling the shaft that connects the steering gear to just inside the firewall above the pedals. It is a 2 piece shaft that collapses, complete with the rag joint (rubber bushing). Worn ones have been found to have a full 1/4 turn or more of slop from wear where new ones are tight with next to no play. This is another point of steering play that should be checked and if found worn replaced. From others it seems to take only 5-10 mins to take out once you see who to disconnect it.


Make sure you take your vehicle for a test drive as soon as they are finished and check that steering wheel for being centers when going straight.

Hope this all helps some what for those that are having issues.

 

ive replaced the tie rods and that didnt stop the shaking while braking. I noticed that my ball joints are pretty worn. Could these also cause the shaking while braking. If not i dont know what else it could be.

 

Even with new rotors, they could be warped. Or your wheel bearings are shot.

 

Before you buy adjstable camber bushins or any camber bushings it needs to go on an alignment rack so they can tell you what to get.

 

Examine the rotors before anything, you can easily check them and feel them by hand just taking the tires off.