Damn, Gene... Quoting Banks doesn't buy you much here... LMAO!!!!

 

I wont argue with the laws of physics or with your explanation of how they apply to the air intake system on the 7.3L

But I will add one point.

Myself, Jeremy and others have monitored the air intake temperatures and manifold temperatures running the Ford AIS and the 6637 TYMAR. What we found was that while driving there was no more than about a 5 degree temp difference between the two. Now at idle at a stop light there was about a 25 degree temp difference, but once the truck started moving the difference was negligable. In fact, after I got up to speed while towing the 5th wheel - the air intake temp sensor was registering only 2 degrees warmer than the OAT.

Now if you really want to cool that compressed air - an aftermarket intercooler (like DIIC, Spearco, etc.) will drop those temps & EGT's even more.

I still have my AIS. But for now I'll run the 6637 TYMAR. I like the turbo whistle and Pete's Custom Filter cover. In addition, my used oil analysis reports continue to show the 6637 filters as well as the AIS on my vehicle. But to each his own......Powerstrokes are kinda like Harley's in a way - there aren't 2 that are exactly alike.

For those that tow alot, check out T. Wildman's tow tune. Automatic downshift from OD to 3rd at 40 mph, TC stays locked until 30 mph. Great tune to slow the train down on the downslopes. I tend to use this as my daily driving tune alot.

 

I don't recall saying the ported housing moves more air. I thought I said the L99 wheel did. I am glad you are happy with your setup as that is what matters in the end.

 

Great talking to you today Rich. I am too cheap for a new IC. I am a firm believer in a cool charge though, and will be trying a few things this spring if it ever effing warms up. I am with Gene on the intake temp theory which really isn't theory, just hard to apply.

I don't have a EGT problem, just want better quality air. Just a few ponies ya know.

 

Be sure to let us know if it's worth .01, .1 or more than 1 HP, Mike......

 

I will Joe. I need .01hp to get where I want to be. To be honest, I can tell the truck has a lot more in it, but I asked for no low end hit, and I got it in my tunes. I just don't need any boat anchors.

 

I was considering the T. Wildman chip.. but I think there is much more to be gained from the DP Tuner. This is my opinion so there is no need for the T Wildman folks to come after me!

I agree totally about the 6637 vs. the AIS.. If we were seeing a 50 degree diff at highway speeds then yes it would be better.. but it's not.. so it's to each and there own.

Ohh.. and Izzy... thanks for the response!!

 

From what i've read they are both pretty much the same as far as tunes go. Joe can elaborate on this better than I can though, as he has ran both.

 

Oh well, your loss.

 

The IC has a very large "thermal mass" which means that it takes a long time before you see the true "steady state" value of the MAT! When you make a hard acceleration run, or climb a 1 to 2 mile long grade much of the heat from the turbo outlet is stored in the "thermal mass" of the IC and you won't see much of an increase in MAT. I now have a continuous read out of my MAT and it takes towing up a steady grade for 4 to 5 miles before the MAT reaches a steady state value!

In the steady state if you ingest hotter air into the turbo inlet your MAT will increase. The amount of increase depends on a number of factors including the temperature of the turbo inlet air, the temperature of the ambient air flowing through the IC heat exchanger, the IC heat exchanger efficiency, and the turbo efficiency which also varies as BP and MAF.

I just happen to have this graph handy from posting it on another forum to show the benefit of adding an IC to an older truck that doesn't have one and it gives the MAT with and without an IC. If anyone's interested I can run a similar graph to show the steady state increase in MAT for various combinations of ambient temp and under the hood temp to show the benefit of a cold air intake! It would be the same basic story as below but of course comparing the differences in MAT with an open element filter vs a filter in a cold air intake box aren't nearly as large as comparing trucks with and without an IC.

In the graph below I plotted the TOT Ideal=Turbo Outlet Temperature Ideal F, which is the green curve, the TOT Actual=Turbo Outlet Temperature Actual F, which is the red curve, and the Inlet MAT=Inlet Manifold Air Temperature F, which is the blue curve.

The TOT Ideal curve is for an "ideal" turbo that heats the air the minimum theoretical amount for compressing it to achieve the indicated boost pressures. The TOT Actual curve takes into account the TCE=Turbo Compressor Efficiency which for this run was 65%. The TOT Ideal curve is the same as having a turbo with a TCE=100%. The difference between the TOT Ideal curve and the TOT Actual curve is due to the additional heating of the air by the "inefficient" compression caused by an actual turbo.



The ICEE=Intercooler Exchanger Efficiency is 70%, and the ICEAT=Intercooler Exchanger Air Temperature F is 90 F. The 70% ICEE describes how efficiently the IC removes heat ENERGY from the charge air as it flows through the IC, and the 90 F ICEAT is the temperature of the ambient air flowing through the heat exchanger portion of the IC. With these assumptions the IC cools the charge air from the TOT Actual temperature down to the Inlet MAT value.

Without the IC the ICEE=0% and the Inlet MAT value is the same as the TOT Actual value because no charge air cooling at all takes place due to not having the IC. So the difference between the solid red curve and the solid blue curve as read on the left hand scale gives the reduction in Inlet MAT due to the IC.

For a given VAF=Volume Air Flow ft^3/min adding the IC reduces the Inlet MAT and this in turn increases the AD=Air Density lb/ft^3 and therefore the MAF=Mass Air Flow lb/min into the cylinders because MAF={(AD)(VAF)} lb/min. At 2,800 RPM I plotted the MAF curves for the charge air flow into the intake manifold with and without the intercooler which are the blue diamond curve with the IC and the red diamond curve without the IC.

To make more HP you need to increase the MAF into the cylinders and then add more fuel. If you just increase the MAF into the cylinders without adding more fuel you might still get a tad more HP due to the enhanced combustion of the same amount of fuel, and you'll also get lower EGT because the additional air mass filling the cylinder gives more total "heat capacity" for absorbing heat ENERGY from the fuel at a lower cylinder air temperature.

If you look at the graph for BP=20 psi you'll see that adding an IC increases the MAF from MAF=25 lb/min without an IC to MAF=32 lb/min with an IC. If you add enough fuel to combust this additional MAF you can expect to see a HP increase of about a factor of (32)/(25)=1.28 or a 28% increase.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to let an auto tranny shift while under the heavy load of towing. I towed with a stock tranny for 9+ years and by shifting manually I never had a problem. I don't even let my Allison shift by itself when towing!

 

Isn't this what myself and others were stating about the 6637 TYMAR compared to a cold air intake? That the differences in MAT with an open air element filter vs a cold air intake aren't very large?

 

Here are some pics of the Turbonetics Hi Flow Outlet installed on my new GTP38R turbo with the 1.0 exhaust turbine housing. It should flow rather well over the standard EBPV delete housing. It also looks to be a little larger in I.D. that the 1.15 adaptor flange. With the 1.0 and the Hi Flow Outlet, I hope to get good spooling and a substantial reduction of EGTs. Even with a injector upgrade, in the near future, I hope that this will prove to be a good combination.

 

If you follow this example through from top to bottom you'll understand the "Physics" of how much a turbo heats the air as it compresses it and how much the IC=Intercooler cools the air before it's ingested by the engine. This example compares the MAD=Manifold Air Density, lb/ft3 differences between a cold air intake and a under the hood open element intake, and it shows a 19.1 F delta increase in MAT which causes a 3% reduction in MAD which implies a 3% reduction in maximum HP. For a 300 FWHP engine that's a 9 HP reduction!

However I'm not recommending a cold air intake to increase your maximum HP but rather to save a lot of wear and tear on your turbo so it won't self destruct in the mountains like mine did after only 50K miles of towing with an under the hood open element intake!

When the compressor wheel spins at a given rpm it generates a fixed VAF=Volume Air Flow, ft^3/min and when the MAD decreases by 3% the MAF and the HP decrease by 3% and then you have to apply more throttle to make the compressor wheel spin at a higher rpm to flow more VAF at the lower density to produce the same MAF and HP as before. In the mountains the turbo is already overworked trying to recoup the 2 to 4 psi reduction in AAP=Atmospheric Air Pressure and using an under the hood open element intake causes a significant additional workload for the turbo!

This example is by no means a worst case one. The picture below shows my setup for making real time measurements of under the hood temperatures while towing and a number of times I saw the maximum reading for that gauge of 160 F. The radiator fan goes into full lockup mode when the engine compartment temperature reaches 205 F and my fan usually did that toward the top of long steep grades.

You won't see these numbers while driving to the Wal-Mart! You need to tow for several hours before the engine compartment experiences a steady state "heat soak" condition. There's the thermal mass of the block, coolant, etc, and all of this takes several hours to reach equilibrium.



Turbo & Intercooler Equations with example numbers comparing cold vs open element intake.

AAP=Atmospheric Air Pressure, psi =14.7 psi
AFIPI=Air Filter Inlet Pressure Increase, psi =0 psi, no RAM air intake
AFIAP=Air Filter Inlet Air Pressure, psi
AFIAP=AAP+ AFIPI, psi =14.7+0=14.7 psi
AFPD=Air Filter Pressure Drop, psi =0.4 psi=11" H20 at 24 psi boost
TIAP=Turbo Inlet Air Pressure, psi
TIAP=AFIAP-AFPD, psi =14.7-0.4=14.3 psi

MAP=Manifold Air Pressure, psi
BP=Boost Pressure, psi =24 psi
MAP=(BP+AAP), psi =24+14.7=38.7 psi
ICPD=Intercooler Pressure Drop, psi =1.6 psi at 24 psi boost
TOAP=Turbo Outlet Air Pressure, psi
TOAP=MAP+ICPD, psi =38.7+1.6=40.3 psi

TPR=Turbo Pressure Ratio, ratio
TPR=TOAP/TIAP, ratio =40.3/14.3=2.82

AAT=Atmospheric Air Temperature, F =70 F
AFITI=Air Filter Inlet Temperature Increase, F =5 F cold vs 55 F open =50 F delta
AFIAT=Air Filter Inlet Air Temperature, F
AFIAT=AAT+AFITI, F =70+5=75 F cold vs 70+55=125 F open =50 F delta
TITI=Turbo Inlet Temperature Increase, F =5 F cold vs 5 F open
TIAT=Turbo Inlet Air Temperature, F
TIAT=AFIAT+TITI, F =75+5=80 F cold vs 125+5=130 F open =50 F delta

TOATI=Turbo Outlet Air Temperature Ideal, F
TOATI={TIAT+459.67}{(TPR)^0.286}-459.67, F
TOATI={80+459.67}{(2.82)^0.286}-459.67=266.3 F cold
TOATI={130+459.67}{(2.82)^0.286}-459.67=333.5 F open =67.2 F delta
TCE=Turbo Compressor Efficiency, ratio =0.65
TOATA=Turbo Outlet Air Temperature Actual, F
TOATA=TIAT+{TOATI-TIAT}/{TCE}, F
TOATA=80+{266.3-80}/{0.65}=366.6 F cold
TOATA=130+{333.5-130}/{0.65}=443.1 F open =76.5 F delta

ICETI=Intercooler Exchanger Temperature Increase, F =30 F
ICEAT=Intercooler Exchanger Air Temperature, F
ICEAT=AAT+ICETI, F =70+30=100 F
ICEE=Intercooler Exchanger Efficiency, ratio =0.75
MAT=Manifold Air Temperature, F
MAT=TOATA-{TOATA-ICEAT}{ICEE}, F
MAT=366.6-{366.6-100}{0.75}=166.7 F cold
MAT=443.1-{443.1-100}{0.75}=185.8 F open =19.1 F delta

MAD=Manifold Air Density, lb/ft3
MAD={(2.70325)(MAP)}/{(MAT+459.67)}, lb/ft3
MAD={(2.70325)(38.7)}/{(166.7+459.67)}=0.167 lb/ft3 cold
MAD={(2.70325)(38.7)}/{(185.8+459.67)}=0.162 lb/ft3 open =3% reduction in HP

 

OK, I understand your explanation - well not all of it. Just everything in your post before the picture. You lost me in the data & formulas below the pic - I'll need 4 more cups of coffee and 6 hours of total silence in the house - and I still might not get it.

If I understand correctly, you are specifically refering to towing in the mountains up steep grades (6%) and/or at high altitude.

The temperature readings (AIT, MAT) I took where taken in 2 towing situations. Driving/towing our 5th wheel from Oklahoma to South Dakota. Approx. 7 hours into the trip in Nebraska - I basically had the laptop on monitoring with Auto Enginuity the whole trip. The second was while towing in the Black Hills, SD after towing for 5 hours from Sioux Falls. But neither of those situations had grades as steep as the Rockies.

 

Some oldies but goodies for your reading enjoyment...

Intake CFM shootout... From post #227...
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...ootout-16.html

Engine performance vs increases in air filter inlet temp... From post #1...
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...nlet-temp.html

Equal MAF (lb/min) Does NOT Yield Equal HP!!!... From post #1...
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...ml#post5194401

ATS housing question... From post #18...
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...ml#post5266398