What wheels are these??
 

Hello y’all I just bought a 1951 F5 Ford and I’m a little worried about doing anything with the wheels due to the “widow maker” stories I’ve seen. Can you tell if these are the Firestone “widow maker” wheels? I’ve seen some mentions of other wheels that can be used instead but want to find a set of wheels with similar size. Anyone know of good option? Sorry I did a search but thought this might give me direct info. Thank you
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...ff01f5f7f.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...9c72d3cf1.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...fb6190f4d.jpeg

Your pictures are a little small to see the details good, but they do appear to be the dreaded widowmakers.

Same pictures you posted on the Ford Barn. Absolutely they are widow makers.

Replacement 22.5s are the straight forward fix. I believe one or two of our members have sets available. I’ll see if I can get one or both to drop by here to comment.

I’ll attach better pics of one I had to show the joint where the side ring mates with the base rim. Stu

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...e53f69488.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...4e8be7730.jpeg

I've got some 22.5s for sale. How many are you looking for?

Well I would need the two fronts and the rear dually wheels. Feel free to message me

Truckdog…. Thanks man. Yeah those wheels creep me out ha. I have ZERO interest in ≈≈======= them….. which brings me to the question….. Why ==would Ford build those and continue to use them if they were hurting customers?? Why wouldn’t they recall them all and replace them with something safe?

Oh boy, how long an answer do you want?

Ford didn’t build them. The RH-5° rim was used by all four of the wheel companies (Budd, K-H, Motor Wheel, Accuride). Ford and GM were Firestone’s best customers. The Firestone marketing people called it the “Advanced Design” rim beginning in 1948.

Over the decades injuries mounted. Ralph Nader represented the insurance industry (IIHS) and around 1970 along with Joan Claybrook of NHTSA a recall effort gained speed. At first the goal was to recall all multi-part wheels and force replacement with tubeless one piece 19.5” and 22.5” wheels. Industry argued it would bankrupt them. A compromise was found that saved most multi-part rim designs, and in 1972 they agreed to stop producing the Firestone RH-5° and Goodyear K-28 which was the Dayton style with front to back split rim design. These were causing the most injuries.

The recall effort crawled through the layers of government review until 1980 when it got killed. You’ll recall there was an election that year, and industry might have found a more sympathetic ear in the new administration. Instead of a recall, OSHA mandated added training for technicians and produced wall charts to post at work sites detailing the types of rims/rings and their proper handling methods (cages, etc).

What the government failed to do, the legal and insurance industries succeeded in doing. Jury awards and insurance rates have rendered the RH-5° and K28 rims pariahs. No respectable shop will touch them. But it is the old truck hobby that has suffered as a result. The supply of good used locking side ring wheels (17”, 18”, 20”), and tubeless 19.5s and 22.5s is drying up. I watch eBay and shake my head at asking prices. Reproduction tubeless wheels are now available but they look nothing like the old originals.

So over the years several of us have tried to rescue these good used wheels when we can. Stu

Additionally, let us be reminded that OSHA, Firestone, the NHTSA, and various state bodies (such as Utah) looked at recalls/bans in the 80's and determined that the effort was ultimately unwarranted, not because there wasn't a deserving safety issue, but that because since the introduction of single piece rims decades earlier coupled with the estimated service live of 10-15 years, the remaining population was insignificant and declining and essentially self-regulated out of existence. This leaves us hobbyist to watch out for each other.

Remember, Ford/Firestone introduced one piece rims for 1956, and here are some fun tidbits about Firestone acknowledging their issue:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...b77fa7d4bf.png


And an excerpt from a Radio/TV commercial script produced by Firestone in 1955:

"This evening, it gives me great pleasure to announce that Firestone engineers have developed a complete new line of tubeless truck tires and one-piece rims which America's leading truck manufacturers have adopted as standard equipment for their 1956 models. . . . With this recognition and endorsement begins a new era in trucking history, a step which means a new high in transportation safety and a new low in truck tire costs. . . . There is no danger of side rings blowing off."

It would seem to me that if Firestone mentioned rim separation in their advertising, it must have been common enough of an occurrence to quell.

Another piece of this was unreliability of the early tubeless truck tires. The early tires would seep air through the tire carcasses. Many truck buyers thus opted to continue with the tried and true tube types. Then when radials came to market in the 1960s the old riveted wheels began to fail. Tubeless wheel warranties were voided if radials had been mounted. Fully welded wheel construction and a design change on the 22.5s solved it. Stu

Well thanks for the information fellas. You guys are a valuable resource to us noobs. You are appreciated. I haven’t touched the wheels since I got the truck. Is there a safe way to lower pressure or remove the wheels without killing myself? I think I read that LOWERING pressure could cause them to “explode”. The truck has obviously sat in the mud for awhile based on the mud line on the tires. Is there someone near Austin, Texas that would want to trade/buy the original wheels? Any help getting a good replacement set in the Austin area would be appreciated.

Disappointing that Ford wasn’t more proactive on getting getting the “widowmaker” wheels off the streets. It reminds me of the “death wobble” Ford trucks have been experiencing for DECADES. I have owned 3 F250s of different year models that tried to kill me dating back to 1996. It is insane that they kept building trucks that were doing that through different model ranges. In fairness my current 2007 RAM diesel did it a couple times until I replaced the entire front steering with heavy aftermarket gear.

On a different note… that’s nice of FTE to further my already edited F words for me ha.

If you don’t need it to roll before replacing the wheels I like to use my battery drill to make a 1/8” hole in the tread area of each tire - while kneeling off to one side. The most dangerous are the outer duals because they would blow outward. The fronts and inner duals would blow inward. The other way is to pull valve cores.

These wheels are almost enough to make a guy a Dodge or IHC fan. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of them with widow makers. Seems they used Goodyear locking side ring rims exclusively. Of course Goodyear had their own problems with their K28 Daytons.

I really doubt you’ll find wheels falling out of trees in your area, unless there are still old yards for you to search. The two guys here that have 22.5s are in SD and MT, so shipping comes as part of the experience. The set that my buddy Mark earlier offered could be shipped at reasonable cost through Fastenal’s Blue Lane service. He would drop off the pallet at his local store and you could pick up at your local store. Stu

Pm me i have access to 7 19.5 tubeless rims that are 5 lug.

Someone else has first dibs but i cant reach them right now.

This is a good alternative to the 22.5s if you don’t mind the tires being a little shorter. The 22.5” wheel would take a 9R22.5”, which is the narrowest today available, at 38” tall. These 19.5” x 6” motor home wheels are spec’d for an 8R19.5” that measures about 34”. They also could use 225/70R19.5” that are about 32”. The 225/70 is also available as a cheaper recap from Bandag and maybe others. Stu

Thanks for the replies y’all. I wouldn’t mind replacing the wheels with newer options. Do you guys have any photos of the options you have presented installed on one of these trucks by chance??

Here’s a 51 with 19.5s, wearing 225/70s I think, from Google Images. I’ll keep looking for a truck wearing 22.5s. If nothing is found they would look just about like your 20s with 8.25-20s. Stu

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...9c81ab794.jpeg

Sorry for my lack of knowledge… but what is the size of the wheels on the truck? I’m not anywhere close to the truck

If your truck is an F-5 it will have 20” wheels. Tire options were likely 7.50-20” at 37” diameter, or 8.25-20” at 38+” diameter.

The 22.5” wheel is the direct replacement for the 20”. The 22.5” rims were made in 3 widths - 5.25”, 6.00”, and 6.75”. The 6.75” is seldom found. Most I know of are the 5.25”. The 9R22.5” tire is technically too wide for the 5.25” rim but many guy run them no problem. I swapped notes with my buddy Mark this morning and he told me he doesn’t have 6 to sell. So. My other buddy in MT, also named Mark, does have six if you want to contact him. Shipping MT to TX would add expense.

The 19.5” wheels were made in two widths, 5.25” and 6.00”. Both are spec’d for either the 8R19.5” at 34” or 225/70R19.5” at 32”. Stu

A stock F5 will have 20" bias ply tires. Various factors would lead to these being be 7.00-20, 7.50-20, and sometimes 8.25-20 tire sizes. This chart shows the equivalent sizes to the first tubeless generation:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...79eb9356c5.png

You will find that the smaller sizes don't modernize very well, thus pushing you towards the 9R-22.5 size (which is fine - I have them on my F5 and look no different than the 8.25-20s I have on my F6 which is expected as they are "the same size")

Then there is the rim size that must be appropriate for the tire. Generally for our trucks this is the 22.5x6.75 size which isn't the easiest 22.5 size to find. Some get away with smaller, but check with the tire manufacturer specs on if a 22.5-6.00 is acceptable.

And for more information, here are some speed calculations as well as tire diameter size comparisons:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...aeaa4db9cb.png

Edit: Looks like Stu and I were typing at the same time!

You guys rock. Thanks. If you were close to Austin I’d buy you a beer!. Appreciate your knowledge asnd years of experience fellas. :-drink

I like this old pic from around the time the tubeless rims were made available. Stu

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...4770af4cc.jpeg

Were these the tires that were supposed to be aired-up inside the pipe cage? A young man I knew in the early 1970's didn't bother with the cage, and the rim took his head off, just above the eye brows.

These true Widowmaker rims are not only dangers during service, but also just being as many failures also happened outside of servicing. Simply using a cage during servicing does not make these true RH-5° rims safe to use.

A cage should be used for any truck wheel during service, regardless of type.

I think OSHA wants a cage for anything these days. It's not impossible for a tubeless to let go--just not very common and it's usually not the wheel failing. The widowmaker sends a sizeable chunk of metal out if it lets go. A locking ring would also create a lasting impression if it popped off.

A local in our small town suffered four fractures from a widowmaker--two on each leg.

I Don't Understand This
 

Are you saying that you want the "widow maker" rims? Exacrtly which wheels are you looking for? I am currently rebuilding a 1949 Ford F2 Pickup ('light' 3/4 tone), and I may buy new wheels. I am not sure what variation of split rims that I have, but I strongly believe that these were OEM wheels. I will decide for sure whether or not I will be replacing them by end of January. I live about three hours north of Austin.

I am trying to get rid of my set of a “widow makers”. The truck I just picked up has them on it.

Mercy - your truck is different than Bigstar’s. Yours deserves its own thread. An F-2 has one piece wheels, so don’t try to swap them for something different unless they aren’t the originals. Stu

I do have a set of 6 22 5s if you are interested.

widow makers are safer when deflated as they cant go boom if they have no outward pressure from air in the tube.
chances are your tires are flat from sitting anyways so get in a safe position and remove the valve cores from all the tires, facing away for obvious reasons.
the tires when flat look aired up as bias ply tires hold thier own weight from the thick sidewall.

This is what i do for an example (I am a trained professional idiot so dont try this at home.), I have driven my truck many times with no air in my widowmakers.
I dont suggest you do this for saftey reasons, but for moving around your yard these rims are safe if they dont have air in them.
if you dont feel safe doing that then dont do it, but the reason i am saying this is so you can start working on your truck now as getting a set of new wheels and tires takes quite a while.

So you can work on your truck while finding a set of new wheels is what i meant.

Wonder if anyone has just welded the 2 piece widowmakers together ( after locked in correct position) Metal must be clean of course. Then use liners and tubes on them. Tires would just have to be installed on a typical tire mounting machine. Is this far fetched? Was this ever an approved repair?

I was wondering the same thing!! We think alike

Simply welding the RH-5 rims together does not allow for the geometries for said tire to be installed. Manufactured one piece rims have different bead seats and drop centers the RH-5 do not.

See here:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post20743914

Many (great and not so great) minds over the decades have thought about various tricks or hacks, and so far, it all boils down to replacement rims one way or another, either scavenged or new.

Yeah, you should check out the thread where we talk about modifying 22.5 semi rims to work on our trucks.

It was the Replacement for widowmakers thread.

do you have a link?????

Same thread already shared. In summary, one cuts the centers out of the RH-5 rims and professionally welds them in to 22.5-6 or so empty rim. It takes precision machine tools to align the centers and square them up in all planes.

Thank you sir

The RH-5 actually does have a semi drop vs the common base flat style. Once welded together , it seems a tire machine could force the 20" tire over it with the help of the drop in center, which solid wheels also have.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...10b60a5442.jpg

@tripleframe , there is more to it as Stu shared:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#post20743932

As in the thread I shared earlier the 2 most promising options are putting the Widowmaker centers into a 22.5 semi rim or a 20 or 22.5 Dayton rim shell.