Hey everyone. I was ebaying the other day and found a guy selling a 59a motor and tranny. He mentions that his truck frame has "helper springs" to make it more heavy duty. The picts got me to thinking that I might be able to easily use my closed drive 4spd in my 1/2 ton. I was concerned about how to setup a 2 piece drive shaft and get the right angles with the hanger bearing in only about 5' of driveshaft.

I swiped the 2 pictures off ebay so I didn't put them in my gallery. But I posted a link to some web space I have:

http://members.iphouse.com/soule005/driveshaft/

This guy also has a closed drive 4spd in what looks like a 1/2 ton frame -- I don't see any frame members that would hold a hanger bearing. So if you look at the closer pict of the tranny you can see that it is closed drive, with the front U-joint bolted to the tranny output shaft. It looks like on the back side of that u-joint is welded a splined tube for the the driveshaft expansion. In that slides the splined shaft that is welded to the front of the driveshaft which I assume stretches to the differential where the rear u-joint is bolted on.. So this setup looks like the expansion is between the 2 u-joints unlike the open drive trannies where it is at the output shaft of the tranny.

Has anyone ever seen this type of setup before? Is it something that likely came from the factory or likely a custom setup? Did the 4spd ever come with an open drive? Obviously this was setup to do some heavy hauling and likely held up -- it still looks funtional -- of course it was also very likely that it never saw high RPM doing that kind of hauling. Give me some quick first thoughts, since I have to have a driveshaft made up, would any of you consider this setup to use that 4spd that I have? You can laugh at me all you want while you are writing your responses, I am still looking for and having a hard time locating a good open drive tranny locally.

 

Finding a good trans is hard, I can understand that. That is a stock style set up he has there. That is a 1/2 ton frame, with the 1/2 ton 4 speed in it. You can tell it's 1/2 ton by looking at the crossmember for the transmission. 1/2 tons wiuth 4 speeds are rare, not really all that desirable, so finding them is tougher. That driveshaft is a little odd looking though, should not be so pinched in the front...might have coem from something else. Follow that set up and it would work fine for a 1/2 ton frame. The driveshaft should be solid, I think it would be much tougher to rig up something using a 2 piece than it would be to just follow the stock 1/2 ton style set up.

 

So that is what Ford would have done for a driveshaft. It seems simple enough to do. I'll have to find someone that does driveshafts and see if they can/will do that. It will save me the time of looking.

3Mike46, thanks for the heads up on fordbarn. That was one of the earlier places I found for used stuff -- maybe I need to place an ad rather than just passively looking. I haven't seen too many go up there -- the last one was closed drive also in California.

 

There's always that evil auction site too.

 

Ha, ha ,ha Mike you must not have seen my post in the front spring thread I started. My first time and probably on that auction site, I bought a pair of 59a heads. I think I am going to modify my 8ba block to look more original, so I am looking for some parts like that and the front dizzy. Well the guy listed the heads as very good condition and when they came, one is so pitted I don't think I can use it. So I am a little leary about buying something used that I cannot see anymore.

So then I come up with my millions of questions.

1. Gary, you said that the frame in the above post is a 1/2 ton like I suspected. But you based it on the tranny crossmember. I have read that there are some differences between the "removable" member for the 1/2 and the tonner. I have a tranny that came from a tonner (says so in the VIN) in my 1/2 ton frame. Is it likely that my removable member will work with a 3spd or do I need to get that also (let me know if you need picts). I have been having a hard time figuring out what all I have from the begining since there were so many mods to my truck. And you guys jsut seem to be able to look at things and see subtle differences :-)

2. For those with some later model experience, what should I look out for if I get a tranny from a '48-'52 1/2 ton. The guy I bought the truck from has several from those years that he has for parts and has been kindof willing to let me buy one from him. I assume that the 2 big things would be the rear mount and the bellhousing. Since I have the 8ba already the bell probably will not be a problem -- but maybe I should grab the starter. Does anyone have enough experiece with the newer tranny to give me any tips (the owner says that they are all 4spd but I have my doubts about that, he was also under the impression that all 3spd were column mount like the cars-- but he has been right about most of the question I asked him about what I have).

Again Thanks for your help

 

I'm not sure why you would want to use an early 4 speed trans. They have straight cut gears, which means double clutching both up and down. The only advantage on that 4 speed was the low granny gear which would be great for pulling stumps, but little use in modern traffic. I removed the 4 speed in my one ton and replaced it with a 49 Merc O/D trans which is synchroed and has the benefit of a .26 overdrive. I retained the center bearing support on my truck in order to maintain its original look, but could have just as well used a straight driveshaft from the tailhousing to the differential. There will be significant added cost in using two driveshafts with a center bearing. For starters you'll need a crossmember to hang that bearing on. Then you'll need two driveshafts, four universal joints, and two splined shafts. Starting from scratch as you are I'm not sure the added cost is worth it. I've seen a 1941 3/4 ton with the single driveshaft much like the one in your picture, but can't say if that's original or a later modification. Hope I haven't muddied the water too much. Good luck with your project!!

 

Expavr, This thread was mainly to point out what I thought was an odd driveshaft setup that could be used on any of the closed drive trannies in the 1/2 ton truck.

I looked seriously at this because I have the 4spd and have been having a hard time finding a 3spd locally. There are a few junkyards that likely have them but are very expensive. I would rather use what I have than pay way too much.

I still have time before I start putting the drivetrain together, but now I can seriouly consider using the tranny that I already have. So until I make the commitment to use my tranny I will continue to look and am trying to get info on other possibilities such as like you did the newer tranny. Like I said above I have available some from 48-52 1/2 tons. I was hoping that someone with experience with the newer trannies could tell me what differences there might be such as the rear crossmember mount. I want to make sure that if I get a newer one I get all the parts from that truck that I will need.

So here are todays questions:

1. Back to the original question on the newer V8 trannies, does anyone know what the physical differences are?

2. One of the trucks has a 6 cyl, assuming they used the same trannies in the newer trucks -- what are the differences between the 6 cyl and V8 trannies (any specific info on the newer model would be more benefitial since I know the truck it is in is the newer 48-52) -- but I will take what you know about the 42-47 also.

3. On the tranny that I have the rear bearing retainer bolts to a small c-shaped sheetmetal mount that sits on the frame crossmember, with rubber between the 2. Is the rubber replaceable? I have not cleaned up what I have yet but it looks like the rubber is mashed to both the frame and the mount (and they have separated). Is there a source for that rubber, are there other suggestions for making something myself? I want to know my options for this before I start to scrape off the rubber.

I am going to go over to the newer truck forum and ask some of these questions also, but I was hoping someone here had the experience with the newer tranny.

Thanks again for your help.

 

1. Physical diffs are almost non existant. You can bolt an early F series trans (48-52) into the '4'42-'47 frame with no problems. I have a '50 heavy duty 3 spd bolted to my '46 flathead V8 in my '46 1/2 ton right now. It bolts in with zero headache.

2. The trans is about the same. Here's where it gets funny though. From '42-'47, the case of the trans itself is different for a 6 than an 8. They will not interchange because of where they bolt to the engine block. Later trans don't have this problem I don't believe.

3.I believe you are talking about the trans mount. You don't replce the rubber, check out one of the various parts suppliers for these trucks, you will find a new trans mount, and they aren't usually too expensive, maybe about $30 IIRC.

Hope this helps you out some.

 

So I visited the guy that I bought the my truck from. He has 6 48-52 truck sitting out there. He told me they all had 4spds in them, and I doubted him. Well I shouldn't have. All but one has a heavy duty 4spd. The one with the light duty 3 speed had the main drive gear stripped out and likely the gear on the cluster is stripped so its pretty much junk. So it looks like my search goes on.

He has one flatty 6 H model with a heavy duty 4spd also.

All of the driveshafts on the 4spd had a variation of the one I described above. So it was a very common setup and likely worked OKay for those trucks.

 

I am really having a hard time coming up with a 3spd for my project. I have had a couple of people across country reply to me and are asking between $150 and $300 for a used tranny. The closest I have come so far is a local yard that has a car tranny for $200, so I would have to buy the junker truck and the car and swap gears -- to the less desirable car ratio.

I have seen the posts for the Chev S10, but I would rather not chop up the frame for a chevy tranny. Has anyone had any experience with the ford T18/T19 or the T170FT in the trucks. It sounds like I can get the T19 with a 4.0:1 first gear. With my 3.0 9" I would have a final output of 12:1 (compared to the roughly 10.5 with the stock light duty 3 spd and a 3.5 rear ratio) Some T170FT have 3.29 first and 0.81 OD (so Iwould definately run the lower rear ratio

Any experience at all with these trannies? The T18/T19 are supposed to be replacements for the T98 from the 50s? Ford trucks and had the same toploader setup as the late 40's 4spd. I just don't hear of anyone using these trannies -- why not?

Thanks again for your help.

 

Do you really need that low first gear? I odn't know what the ratio is on my '59 other brand, but it has the 4spd granny tranny, and I never use 1st gear.

It has a 235 6cyl in it, takes off fine in 2nd...even with the 3.54 gears I put in the rear.

 

I guess I don't need it that low, was just pointing out that the T19 4.0 first gear is not an unreasonable granny gear like the older 4 spd. (T19 4.0 1st, 2.4, 2nd, 1.4 3rd and 1.0 4th). Having a little more torque on the bottom though would bake it reasonable to use my 3.0 rear ratio. I am kindof more interested though in the T170FT since it is a closer ratio "3spd" with an overdive but I am willing to put either in if I can do so without chopping up the frame. My hope was that the 48 hd 3spd had the same bolt pattern as the more modern T98/T18/T19. If so it might just be a simple bolt in thing, if I can get the right bellhousing.

 

OK so no one liked my idea of the Ford truck trannies. I am kindof suprised that no one has tried to put a newer Ford in their truck. So let me bounce this off your heads then. I picked up 2 trannies that are supposed to be from '51 Mercs (cars). I took the covers off each and the gears look good in both. The guy said he pulled one from a running car and it was "noisy" when he pulled it (of course that one looks like it has the better syncros for 2nd and 3rd).

I counted the main shaft gear and got a 16 for both trannies with a main cluster of 28.
I didn't count first gear teeth -- I just assumed by what everyone is selling that they are all the same 29 cluster and 18 on the slider. That gives a first gear output of (28/16)*(29/18)=2.82:1 I see that the maingear/main cluster had the 15/29 tooth combo also, which is actually 3.11:1 output (29/15)*(29/18). So I am assuming that the light duty truck 3 speed generally had the 3.11 first gear. The output shaft is helical cut with 16 splines for both of the car trannies.

Question 1: Is it likely that the gears from these '51 cars will just swap into a light duty 3spd truck box (like I said I can get a box cheap from a '49 F1 with a bad maingear)? Would you stay away from the tranny that was considered "noisy" -- I was thinking that since the gears looked good it was likely bearing noise the fellow heard, and I will replace all bearings if I am going through this job. That would leave me the "good" tanny to keep or trade.

Question 2: Is the 2.82 first gear too tall? (I know stupid question-- see question 3)

Question 3: Concensus is that with only slight mods to the flatty engine I should not run closer than 3.5 rearend ratio. I have to assume that this recommendation was made using the 3.11:1 "truck" first gear ratio for the light duty 3 spd. That means the final output ratio is 3.11*3.5=10.9. So to get the same "power" ratio with the 2.82 first gear I would need a rear ratio of 10.9/2.82=3.87. Would you therefore recommend an approx 3.75 rear ratio if I put the car gears in the truck box? Based on a formula that I found at the flathead techno site it would have the flatty running at 2700 RPM at 60 MPH (neglecting all negative physical forces on the truck).

Thanks again.

 

Personally, I think you're over analyzing the gear ratio thing.

Consider that the cars of the era running flaheads were just as heavy or heavier that the pickups, and also had OD's behiind the 3spds as well.

The low/low 1st gear was for trucks and truck use...idling in feilds, over levees, etc, without having to slip a clutch, as well as staring off with a load on the truck,etc.

A 10% difference lets say, between 1st gear in the car tranny vs 1st gear in the truck tranny (both 3speeds) would be negligible.

As I mentioned before, my '59 235 could use more gear on the highway easily...I run a 3.54 with 30 x 9.50 tires on the rear...I too am about 2600/2700 at 60 or so MPH's and if I had an OD, it would easily keep it pulling. I'd suspect the mid range torque of the V8 flatty engine should equal or exceed that of my inline 6 motor.

Just some thoughts.

I'll bet if you went to the early V8 forum on Frodban, they could tell you about gear swaps between them though...but I don't know what it would really buy you.

Then, one last thing to throw some thoughts and confuse you, have you thought about a T-5 swap? It would give a lower (sychr'ed first gear) as well as an OD. You'd have the best of both ends then

 

Sorry, I am bad -- in the math above the first gear tooth count should read 18 teeth on the cluster gear and 29 teeth on the first gear slider (the math should still be correct since I knew I was gearing down through both gears).