1951 F3 wheels & brakes
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
1951 F3 wheels & brakes
All,
I'm new to the group and just purchased my first truck for restoration, a 1951 Ford F3. I want to change the wheels (widow makers, that need to be gotten rid of anyway), but need help on finding some and what is compatible. I want to change from the original wheels to the style rims that are typically used on F4's and larger trucks (large oval holes, no hubcap). I also want to convert to dual rear wheels. I haven't pulled the existing wheels off yet to confirm if I have 12 in or 14 inch brake drums. I've read on here that wheels large enough to clear the 14 inch drums are not plentiful and hard to locate. I've found a few, but they are all hub piloted instead of stud piloted.
Question: If I have the 14" drums, can I replace them with the 12" drums that came late in 51 production year and open up more wheels options in say the 16 inch size. As far as converting to duals go, I've read that I should pay attention to the amount of clearance between the inner wheel and the leaf springs. Does anyone know what wheel offset is ideal?
I'm new to the group and just purchased my first truck for restoration, a 1951 Ford F3. I want to change the wheels (widow makers, that need to be gotten rid of anyway), but need help on finding some and what is compatible. I want to change from the original wheels to the style rims that are typically used on F4's and larger trucks (large oval holes, no hubcap). I also want to convert to dual rear wheels. I haven't pulled the existing wheels off yet to confirm if I have 12 in or 14 inch brake drums. I've read on here that wheels large enough to clear the 14 inch drums are not plentiful and hard to locate. I've found a few, but they are all hub piloted instead of stud piloted.
Question: If I have the 14" drums, can I replace them with the 12" drums that came late in 51 production year and open up more wheels options in say the 16 inch size. As far as converting to duals go, I've read that I should pay attention to the amount of clearance between the inner wheel and the leaf springs. Does anyone know what wheel offset is ideal?
Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
Welcome to the forum. Glad to see another F-3 being saved. The easiest way to know whether you have an early ‘51 with 14” rear Lockheed brakes or late ‘51 having 12” Bendix rear brakes is by the location of the emergency brake handle. Early trucks have the handle in the left foot well with cables to the rear backing plates, and late trucks have the handle to the right of the shifter operating the transmission mounted brake. Your current widow makers have 1/2” of positive offset. Each DRW 16” will have around 4.75” of positive offset.
Changing to a DRW setup will at minimum involve adding rear spacers to move the wheel mounting surfaces (WMS) outward allowing frame and suspension clearance. Changing to a later DRW rear axle is probably a better option. I’m fuzzy on the exact specifics, but iirc the chassis/cab trucks retained your 34” frame width through around 1975 which allows a DRW bolt in axle swap without modifying spring perchs. I’d suggest looking up member 51dueller (Nathan), or maybe he’ll comment here, since he has done the research and converted his truck. Converting your front axle to DRW will be more involved. Nathan has done that too. Stu
Changing to a DRW setup will at minimum involve adding rear spacers to move the wheel mounting surfaces (WMS) outward allowing frame and suspension clearance. Changing to a later DRW rear axle is probably a better option. I’m fuzzy on the exact specifics, but iirc the chassis/cab trucks retained your 34” frame width through around 1975 which allows a DRW bolt in axle swap without modifying spring perchs. I’d suggest looking up member 51dueller (Nathan), or maybe he’ll comment here, since he has done the research and converted his truck. Converting your front axle to DRW will be more involved. Nathan has done that too. Stu
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 16,882
Likes: 3,126
From: SE Wisc. (the Rust Belt)
I'm not an expert on switching axles but a pre-1973 F-250 should bolt up without much trouble so I would assume a pre-1973 dually rear axle would fit as well. Just do the measurements. Also, with the newer axle you have better brakes with easier to find parts, how much easier I don't know. As for the front you could convert to disc brakes and retain the eight lug bolt pattern. There's home brew recipes to do so:
F-2/F-3 Front Disc Brake Conversion
or you can buy a kit to do it:
TSM Manufacturing website, click below
1849
F-2/F-3 Front Disc Brake Conversion
or you can buy a kit to do it:
TSM Manufacturing website, click below
1849
Believe Nothing
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,514
Likes: 398
From: W. Central FL.
Welcome to FTE. I would trash the original rear end assembly and go with a later Dana or Sterling, especially if you're going to DRWs. I went with a Dana 70 with 4:10 gears from a 1969 F350 into my F4. If I were doing it again, I would opt for a later rear end with hub centered wheels as Ford discontinued the lug centered wheels about 1984 and they're getting harder to find.
The overall and spring pad width was correct, I did have to change the pinion angle. I used the existing Dana rear parking brakes assemblies with the original floor located E brake handle. The 4:10 gears make for an acceptable road speed and with the addition of OD, road speed is easy.
The overall and spring pad width was correct, I did have to change the pinion angle. I used the existing Dana rear parking brakes assemblies with the original floor located E brake handle. The 4:10 gears make for an acceptable road speed and with the addition of OD, road speed is easy.
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
All,
Thanks so much for your help! I'm sure I will be asking a lot of stupid questions, but need your expertise in order to help save this precious piece of history (precious to me at least).
Hi Stu,
Good news, the e-brake handle is to the right of the shifter and definitely feels connected to the trans instead of a cable, so I must have a later 51 build. So, looks like I may have better wheel options? I was really trying to keep the truck as original as I could, but realize that replacing the rear axle has advantages. I guess the drastic change in wheel offset between stock rims and the dually rims creates turning/clearance issues in the front wheel well? In regards to the spacer on the rear, this also requires longer wheel studs to compensate for the spacer thickness, correct? Or am I putting the spacer in the wrong location? (seems like really long studs would be required)
Hi Bob,
Thanks for sharing that detailed procedure on the drum to disc conversion. Trying to stay as original as possible, only changing to newer parts where forced to, or simply makes sense for long-term maintenance. Is the main reason to convert to disc is that the DRW wheels won't clear the front drums? If the rears are 12 inch, are the fronts also 12? If so, it would seem the DRW wheels would clear the drums??
Hi Ray,
I have found a Dana 60 rear axle from a 79 F250 with a 3:54 ratio (axle code on the door tag is C7), but not sure if it is set up for hub piloted wheels. In that late of a year, it probably is hub piloted, but will it be a drop in replacement on my 51 F3? Also, if I change the rear to hub piloted, the front would still be stud piloted, unless there is an easy way to change that over.
Thanks so much for your help! I'm sure I will be asking a lot of stupid questions, but need your expertise in order to help save this precious piece of history (precious to me at least).
Hi Stu,
Good news, the e-brake handle is to the right of the shifter and definitely feels connected to the trans instead of a cable, so I must have a later 51 build. So, looks like I may have better wheel options? I was really trying to keep the truck as original as I could, but realize that replacing the rear axle has advantages. I guess the drastic change in wheel offset between stock rims and the dually rims creates turning/clearance issues in the front wheel well? In regards to the spacer on the rear, this also requires longer wheel studs to compensate for the spacer thickness, correct? Or am I putting the spacer in the wrong location? (seems like really long studs would be required)
Hi Bob,
Thanks for sharing that detailed procedure on the drum to disc conversion. Trying to stay as original as possible, only changing to newer parts where forced to, or simply makes sense for long-term maintenance. Is the main reason to convert to disc is that the DRW wheels won't clear the front drums? If the rears are 12 inch, are the fronts also 12? If so, it would seem the DRW wheels would clear the drums??
Hi Ray,
I have found a Dana 60 rear axle from a 79 F250 with a 3:54 ratio (axle code on the door tag is C7), but not sure if it is set up for hub piloted wheels. In that late of a year, it probably is hub piloted, but will it be a drop in replacement on my 51 F3? Also, if I change the rear to hub piloted, the front would still be stud piloted, unless there is an easy way to change that over.
Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
Doesn’t require longer wheel studs. The below Arrowcraft web page shows you what might be a solution. Keep in mind you’d need to add about 4” or a little more to achieve suspension and frame clearance.
Welcome - Arrowcraft :: Helping You Handle the Road for over 30 years!
Mounting these on the rear would also be teamed with a front set if you are intending to run the same wheels front and rear. I would suggest doing some web searches regarding concerns about the dangers of spacers, and the critical importance of maintaining correct lug nut torque of both inner and outer lug nuts.
That 1979 axle will not match your spring perch width. Stu
Welcome - Arrowcraft :: Helping You Handle the Road for over 30 years!
Mounting these on the rear would also be teamed with a front set if you are intending to run the same wheels front and rear. I would suggest doing some web searches regarding concerns about the dangers of spacers, and the critical importance of maintaining correct lug nut torque of both inner and outer lug nuts.
That 1979 axle will not match your spring perch width. Stu
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Ok, now I'm tracking with you on the spacers (dually kit). Let me re-phrase my desires a different way to see if its even possible. I don't like the look of the F3 stock wheels with moon hubcaps. If it was a pickup it would be ok, but not in the flatbed configuration I have. I would rather keep my F3 as stock as possible, but look like an F4 (wheel design wise), Could I just find an older set of single piece rims in the same bolt pattern (stud piloted)? As you can partially see in the pic I posted, there is several inches between the current rims and the leaf springs. Plus, The stock flat bed has me wondering if the second (outer) tire would be sticking out past the side of the bed rails.
In a different thread, someone took part of their widow maker rims and had them welded and converted into single piece rims that maintained the original look. Could this approach be an option to keep my current axles if I had the custom wheels made with an offset that allows for the inner clearance needed?
There are so many ways to go it is mind boggling at the moment. I've only had the truck for a few days and haven't started any disassembly yet. I'm sure once I start disassembly I will start to gain a clearer focus of the limitations I'm working under. In the meantime, thanks for your patience during my learning curve.
In a different thread, someone took part of their widow maker rims and had them welded and converted into single piece rims that maintained the original look. Could this approach be an option to keep my current axles if I had the custom wheels made with an offset that allows for the inner clearance needed?
There are so many ways to go it is mind boggling at the moment. I've only had the truck for a few days and haven't started any disassembly yet. I'm sure once I start disassembly I will start to gain a clearer focus of the limitations I'm working under. In the meantime, thanks for your patience during my learning curve.
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
10 Things Every Truck Owner NEEDS (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalyptic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies
Joe Kucinski
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
You are I fear wanting what doesn’t exist. A dished wheel like an original F-4 has, or like the 16” ones on Ray’s truck, will sit too far inward toward your frame and suspension. What you feel is a lot of space between wheel/tire and the frame isn’t really a lot. You’d need to move your WMSs outward to make it work. I think a dually mounting would exceed the width of your bed somewhat, but not so much that it would be a deal breaker. Forget the welded widow maker idea. It won’t work. You’d destroy a tire.
I know of other old wheels and bolt patterns that would still be single rear wheel and give the look you might be going after. One common one is the WWII and later Dodge Power Wagon wheel that looks like it’s a dually but is a single design. Google Images will show you plenty of them. The other is this 1940s era single that was used by Marmon-Herrington. I have two of these and have looked long and hard for two others.
I know of other old wheels and bolt patterns that would still be single rear wheel and give the look you might be going after. One common one is the WWII and later Dodge Power Wagon wheel that looks like it’s a dually but is a single design. Google Images will show you plenty of them. The other is this 1940s era single that was used by Marmon-Herrington. I have two of these and have looked long and hard for two others.
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
So, it sounds like in order to get the wheels and look that I want, I must start by locating a new rear axle. Based on the input received, I should look for one that was a F250 DRW set up between ~1960's to 1973, correct? A Dana 60, with a 4:10 ratio. Bob mentioned to "check the measurements", which I assume is the axle width and length to drive shaft connection to keep the same drive shaft?? Maybe there are other specifics I should pay attention to reduce the conversion work.
Then, I should convert the front axles (still need Nathan's input on this) to match what is on the rear to keep all the wheels the same. So, if I stay within the year range of axle stated above, does this keep my wheel search for the stud piloted versions (harder to find), but reduce the conversion effort (relocating spring perches) on rear axle replacement? If this is correct, what wheel diameter should I target? I agree with Ray that the difficulty in finding stud piloted wheels is increasing as time passes, but I only need to find one good set as they should last many years. By the time they wear out, the truck will be passed on to future family generations and they can convert it over to something newer, lol
Sound like a feasible direction?
Then, I should convert the front axles (still need Nathan's input on this) to match what is on the rear to keep all the wheels the same. So, if I stay within the year range of axle stated above, does this keep my wheel search for the stud piloted versions (harder to find), but reduce the conversion effort (relocating spring perches) on rear axle replacement? If this is correct, what wheel diameter should I target? I agree with Ray that the difficulty in finding stud piloted wheels is increasing as time passes, but I only need to find one good set as they should last many years. By the time they wear out, the truck will be passed on to future family generations and they can convert it over to something newer, lol
Sound like a feasible direction?
Marmon-Herrington Man
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,986
Likes: 444
From: Central Illinois
Yes, the Power Wagon wheels look like dually wheels but have shallow SRW offset.
I’ll defer I guess to Ray on the hub piloted vs stud piloted question. There is a third wheel type, used with a stud piloted axle, called a “coined” mounting. It, like the hub piloted, uses a single lug nut on a dually mounting. Below is a picture of such a wheel. It is six lug, but the eight lug is the same.
The axle that I think would best meet your needs would be from an early 1970s U-Haul type F-350 box truck from a salvage yard. This is DRW, and has your 34” frame width meaning spring perches would line up. This is where Nathan I believe can help with the exact year the frame of the cab/chassis trucks got wider. It well could be that these will have the D70 axle. Stu
I’ll defer I guess to Ray on the hub piloted vs stud piloted question. There is a third wheel type, used with a stud piloted axle, called a “coined” mounting. It, like the hub piloted, uses a single lug nut on a dually mounting. Below is a picture of such a wheel. It is six lug, but the eight lug is the same.
The axle that I think would best meet your needs would be from an early 1970s U-Haul type F-350 box truck from a salvage yard. This is DRW, and has your 34” frame width meaning spring perches would line up. This is where Nathan I believe can help with the exact year the frame of the cab/chassis trucks got wider. It well could be that these will have the D70 axle. Stu
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Thanks Josh!
I'm super excited to be saving one of these beautiful trucks.
This is Joel, we were discussing recently about the wheels for the F4 that I was thinking of purchasing. (Previous login name: 48F4)
As Stu has mentioned, I hope Nathan (51dueller) responds to my thread, as it seems he has already gone through the process I'm about to undertake. My first task it seems is to find a new rear axle (see posts above).
I'm super excited to be saving one of these beautiful trucks.
This is Joel, we were discussing recently about the wheels for the F4 that I was thinking of purchasing. (Previous login name: 48F4)
As Stu has mentioned, I hope Nathan (51dueller) responds to my thread, as it seems he has already gone through the process I'm about to undertake. My first task it seems is to find a new rear axle (see posts above).