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Big Truck Envy - Chuck's F-7 Coleman

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  #31  
Old 10-16-2010, 03:35 PM
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The three piece kind are called an "AR" mount. They could be Budd or Kelsey Hayes. Some references say the rim design is Firestone, others say Kelsey Hayes. I'll defer to Chuck on whether they are worth saving. I know that he looks for the 22.5s having this bolt pattern, but if I'm correct these 20s are pretty common. That means common on F-7/F-8s only. No other manufacturer used this bolt pattern so it'll be just Ford guys you'll be marketing to. If it was me I'd be looking for an F-8 with Daytons. Those can accept modern 22.5 demountable rims. Stu

Edit - technically wrong. The three piece version used on F-7 / F-8s was the Firestone R-5 rim. Similar to the AR but not the same. Stu

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Old 10-16-2010, 10:53 PM
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The "AR" wheels are desirable, but only if they are in nice shape. If the lock ring is rusted, they can be as dangerous as split rims. The scary thing about them is that you can't tell if the lock ring is bad until you take them apart. It's common for a decent looking wheel to have a rotted lock ring. The ring tapers down very thin, and extends in pretty deep. I had an experienced tire guy tell me some horror stories about these. He told me he would rather deal with a split rim! Soon after talking to him, I recall a member here telling his story about swapping a set of these from one fire engine to another. His were Dayton style, and he was tapping an outside rear into place when it exploded! He and his son jumped away, as it went sailing down the driveway. Anybody else remember this story?
Long story short, multi-piece wheels can all be dangerous, and if they can be avoided, by all means do so!
Chuck
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:59 AM
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Its Me Chuck

Glad you remember that horror day. My T800 (56) has factory 22.5
tubless, since that horror my f8s&900s have all been replaced with
22.5 tubless from a local tire shop I paid $127 each new. So we now
run 11 22.5s. I prefer disk rims but I find they are extremly rare being
a 10 lug rim. Around this area I think I have only seen one truck with
10lug disk rims. 99% of these era trucks run Daytons. I wrote this
before but when I was a kid this area power co. had a fleet of 1956
crew cab, custom cab all wheel drive 10 wheelers (Yellow). I vividly
remember the rear doors were not front doors but looked more like
rear panel truck doors. I also remember they had full lengh gas tanks
as running boards front winches "Pitman bucket". This is because next
door use to be a dinner and they were allways there. All these years
I have no clue who built these crew cabs maybe you may correct me
but I want to say Crown Coach in Ca.
sam
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Old 10-17-2010, 08:17 AM
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Chuck/Sam - For guys out there searching yards for these tubeless 8 lug x 10" pattern 22.5s, when did Ford last offer them? I know they were first offered in 1956, but my wheel listings go silent after 1962.

I know that two widths were available. A 22.5 x 6.75" (Budd #70420/Ford #B6Q 1015-A) and a 22.5 x 7.50" (Budd #69640/Ford #B6QH 1015-A). The Budd numbers should be stamped on the concave side along the drop center. The Chassis Manual shows they were offered on the various models in the 700, 750, and 800 series. They appear to not have been offered on any of the 900 and larger models. Confusing things somewhat, the Chassis Manual shows that in some instances the same truck model could be ordered with either the 8 lug x 10" package or the more common 10 lug x 11.25" package (B6QH 1015-B). Going through the Chassis Manual I also learn that tubeless 22.5 Dayton demountable rims were an option starting in 1956. Thanks. Stu
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Old 10-17-2010, 09:57 AM
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Sam,
I remember your story well. That was the story that made my mind up that my entire fleet would always wear tubeless rubber, at whatever cost. Life is too short to take this big of a gamble. As fussy as I am about everything being exactly 100% the way it left the Ford assembly plant on my trucks, this is the one exception that I have come to grips with. Besides, it's not like we can buy any kind of tube type 20" tire that's even close to being correct, anyway.
Stu,
8 lug 22.5" wheels make the 5 lug ones look common. Your research is correct in that they were only offered from 1956-'62, but only on F-750's & 800's. F-700's were 6 lug. Like Sam said, most trucks of that vintage had the standard Dayton setup on them, especially on the East coast. If you ever had a prayer of finding a set, they will likely be on the west coast. Most of mine came from Washington. I did find 2 NOS ones at a Ford dealership in upstate NY. They were a Marmon-Herrington distributor, so I'm sure that's why they had these. That set is put aside for my '50 F-8 tractor project. The set that I just put on the Coleman came off of a '56 M-H F-800 in Idaho. One had the lug holes eaten out, so I had to use the spare from my other set.
That '56 M-H also provided the rear spring brackets that I used on the Coleman. Amazingly enough, Coleman made so few F-7/8 kits, that instead of casting new rear dropped brackets in the Big Job configuration, they just took the F-4/6 brackets that they already made, and milled out the inside wider to handle the wider spring. The installer had to weld up some of the original holes in the frame, and drill new holes to mount these tiny brackets. Needless to say, they were shot. It would have taken many hours of welding and machining to fix them, and I'm sure it would have happened again. I wonder if Coleman ever made better ones later? So, through careful research, I figured out that 1953-56 M-H big Job brackets were a bolt on replacement. I got those from the same '56 F-800 that provided the wheels.
Also, Coleman never addressed the rear axle bumpers. M-H made nice extensions, but because the '56 had a banjo rear, one bracket had to be shorter than the other, because one bumper hits the tube, and the other hits the banjo. So, if anybody know where there is another 1953-56 M-H Big Job, I need one more long snubber bracket to complete this job.
Chuck
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  #36  
Old 10-17-2010, 11:22 AM
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Those of us with the F-2 and F-3 M-Hs only think it's hard finding parts. A Coleman would be in a whole different league. I'll be satisfied with my own challenges and let you have yours. Stu
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:24 AM
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Good Morning:

I can vividly remember in the late eighties an incident that happened to myself and a dear friend. His Dad owned a large construction company here in Mass. They had a flat tire on an inside dual on an F-800. While my friend was changing the flat tire on a split rim, I took the good outside tire and rim and put it on the inside. We were all in a rush to get things moving and when he was in the process of placing the rim and tire back on the rear, the split rim band blew off. This incident took the top of my friends head off and although he pulled through this he has never been the same.

After this incident, we changed all of our trucks to tubless.
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:30 PM
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1948 Coleman F-6

I am new to this site and not sure how to load pictures, but I am in the slow process of getting my 1948 Coleman F-6 up and running. You are right about finding much info about Coleman conversions! The truck is mostly complete with only surface rust, few dents and scrapes along with a few bullet holes. I don't plan on any body repairs, just mechanically repaired.
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:59 PM
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Welcome. Glad to have you. I commented over on the MH thread if you need help with the pics. Stu

Since this is the Coleman thread, the pics should go here. Bryon said in his email that he's got an album of regular photos, so hopefully he'll be able to get some scanned to post. Stu


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Old 10-20-2010, 05:32 PM
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Here's an old IH Coleman Sno-go. I wonder if the drivelines are interchangeable with Ford?
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:58 PM
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Thanks Stu for posting the cell phone pictures.
If interested, I posted the numbers in the sticky at the top of page. Any other members with Coleman model/serial numbers?
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:31 PM
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Probably not, it is my understanding that Coleman adapted their turning knuckles onto the manufacturer's rear axle, making it a steering axle. IH had bango axles, as opposed to the split Timken Ford axles. I do stand to be corrected, however.

The transfer case would be the same, I imagine.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:58 PM
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I won't disagree, as the IH rear had a regular pumpkin shape, with "International" logo on the cover. The front looked like it did too. My pics are hard to tell, however, and so I won't post them.

To get further back on topic, I have to admit I'm not too knowledgeable on the older 4x4 conversions, but I can say Coleman is pretty rare in a Ford
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:24 PM
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glad to see you got back on bryon. to catch everyone up, when the wife and i were dragging the new 52 f2 mh home a couple weeks ago we stopped in a small SD town to get gas for the supercrew. bryon pulls up right in front of us and bails out asking questions. i figured i would give him a lesson until he told me he had the coleman. 20 min. later i got away from the pump. i told him about FTE which he said he already knew about so i told him to get back on and check out chucks coleman. glad to see you made it back bryon and i am still looking for that cam for ya. bryon told me he was looking for a flathead v8 cam. anyway, cool truck and i will let you know what i find. and thanks for telling my wife that i am not the only crazy man out there. now there are 2 of us know to exist in SD.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:48 PM
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You bet that IH has lots of good parts on it that would fit my F-7! I bought a bunch of NOS and used Coleman parts from a guy I met through Ebay while I was searching for wheel bearings (new ones from Timken are available for around $3200.00 each!). He had a 1951 IH many years ago, and the parts were all the same. Coleman only made a few different hub assemblies, and a couple of transfer cases. The inner end of the tube has a flange welded to it, that bolts to a mating flange on the the center section. This way all they had to do is swap out center sections for the different makes of trucks. That, and the outer cover (which has the wheel studs in it) is specific to each truck.
It's interesting to note that like M-H, Coleman was definitely thinking "Ford" when they designed these parts. The transfer case mounts incorporate flathead motor mounts, and the differential inside the transfer case is 9N/2N/8N Ford tractor. I disabled that sucker, so the transfer case is now part time. The differential lock lever in the cab is now 2WD/4WD.
A smaller version of that cast "Coleman" script must have existed. I have a pair I took off of an IH like the one pictured, many years ago, and they are way to big to put on the front of a 1948-50 hood like you see in some of the Coleman Ford literature.
Chuck
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