Keith Black pistons trash???
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From: Norton, MA
Keith Black pistons trash???
Hi everybody, moving slowly (but moving) through all the parts on my list for my 400 build. I was in the machine shop talking to the machinist about my pistons the other day, and mentioned that I was thinking about some KB flat tops to get my compression up. No sooner did I get the Kei--- of Keith Black out of my mouth, before my machinist was saying NO! NONONONONONO!
I had no idea what he was freaking out about, but he quickly explained that he will never build an engine with KB pistons for me, or for anybody else, and when I asked him why, he said that they are absolute garbage, and that they have a problem of having their tops crack off.
This is a big problem for me (not so much his refusal, but the fact that KB might be bad pistons) because I haven't heard of anyone else who makes a flat top for a 400. I'm confused though, because before my machinist, I've never heard one bad syllable about KB pistons, or any top coming off problem.
Does anyone have any input on this? He said the forged ones were at least better, but I really don't want to have to go that route.
AleX
I had no idea what he was freaking out about, but he quickly explained that he will never build an engine with KB pistons for me, or for anybody else, and when I asked him why, he said that they are absolute garbage, and that they have a problem of having their tops crack off.
This is a big problem for me (not so much his refusal, but the fact that KB might be bad pistons) because I haven't heard of anyone else who makes a flat top for a 400. I'm confused though, because before my machinist, I've never heard one bad syllable about KB pistons, or any top coming off problem.
Does anyone have any input on this? He said the forged ones were at least better, but I really don't want to have to go that route.
AleX
Cranky Old Guy
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Raphine, Virginia
Well, only have about 1500 miles on mine, but no problems and I've been stretching her out lately fine tuning my carb. Like you, first bad word I've heard about them and my builder, who I trust completly, approved my parts selection.
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Maybe he doesn't install them with the correct clearances and that causes problems.
If KB or any other piston supplier was junk, you would be able to find evidence.
Google or other fine search engine "kb piston failure".
This talks about bike pistons, and the critical top ring end gap:
KB Performance Pistons
More of the same:
United Engine & Machine Co. Incorporated
You can search further and determine if you need another brand piston (good luck with that for the 400) or a new machinist.
If KB or any other piston supplier was junk, you would be able to find evidence.
Google or other fine search engine "kb piston failure".
This talks about bike pistons, and the critical top ring end gap:
KB Performance Pistons
More of the same:
United Engine & Machine Co. Incorporated
You can search further and determine if you need another brand piston (good luck with that for the 400) or a new machinist.
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From: Norton, MA
Found this pretty quickly:
"Keith Black style pistons place the top ring up higher on the piston. This makes the top ring run hotter. Thus more end gap is required. Keith Black pistons got a real bad reputation for top ring land failure when they were first introduced. Because the builders didn't read the instructions in the box.."
Seems pretty clear to me that you're right 85. Thanks for the input guys. Confidence in these pistons restored, that's one thing off the list separating me from a once again roadworthy truck. Added to the list though as you mention is a new machinist, or at least a lot longer conversation with this one than he was willing to have before.
On a related note though, where can I find the web/catalog page that actually shows the Keith Black 400 flat top piston? I've looked through the KB catalog on TMeyer a bunch of times, but can't find it in there. Looking for a price.
Thanks, AleX
"Keith Black style pistons place the top ring up higher on the piston. This makes the top ring run hotter. Thus more end gap is required. Keith Black pistons got a real bad reputation for top ring land failure when they were first introduced. Because the builders didn't read the instructions in the box.."
Seems pretty clear to me that you're right 85. Thanks for the input guys. Confidence in these pistons restored, that's one thing off the list separating me from a once again roadworthy truck. Added to the list though as you mention is a new machinist, or at least a lot longer conversation with this one than he was willing to have before.
On a related note though, where can I find the web/catalog page that actually shows the Keith Black 400 flat top piston? I've looked through the KB catalog on TMeyer a bunch of times, but can't find it in there. Looking for a price.
Thanks, AleX
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Page 18, let's see if this works:
2010 TMeyer Catalogue
$243 for hypers with stock heads and 9.5 CR.
TMI/KB2347
2010 TMeyer Catalogue
$243 for hypers with stock heads and 9.5 CR.
TMI/KB2347
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Posting Guru
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From: Norton, MA
Ah, right there, didn't think to look in the guys own catalog... oh well, thanks.
Well that's that, I see it says ring code A, and I probably don't need anything more than the economical rings he has listed there, but there are 4 different types, which one do I go for, and how do I know? And how could you ever have a 400 bore dia. of 4 1/8, 4.125?
Also, those KB2347's come in oversizes I've read, but do the rings?
Thanks for the continued help.
Well that's that, I see it says ring code A, and I probably don't need anything more than the economical rings he has listed there, but there are 4 different types, which one do I go for, and how do I know? And how could you ever have a 400 bore dia. of 4 1/8, 4.125?
Also, those KB2347's come in oversizes I've read, but do the rings?
Thanks for the continued help.
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Best to consult with the supplier regarding the rings. If it says A, it's probably A.
4.125 bore for a 400 is the Chevy 400, 4.125 x 3.75.
AFAIK, a 400 Ford will not much over an .060 overbore.
If they sell oversize pistons, they sell the rings to match or they wouldn't sell anything.
Where did you see 4.125?
4.125 bore for a 400 is the Chevy 400, 4.125 x 3.75.
AFAIK, a 400 Ford will not much over an .060 overbore.
If they sell oversize pistons, they sell the rings to match or they wouldn't sell anything.
Where did you see 4.125?
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Posting Guru
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From: Norton, MA
4.125 is in the ring chart on the facing page in the TMeyer catalog to the KB2347 pistons. Page 19, top of the left column. It seems to be in the ring chart that goes with the 400 pistons, but I'm not sure why, because as you say, you can't go nearly that wide boring a 400 block.
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Senior User
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From: Irondale, Al.
I've got KB/Tmeyer pistons and have nearly 3000 miles with no problem. A parts supplier in Birmingham said they quit selling KB pistons because of problems with them. So, I asked my engine machinist/builder his opinion and he said the same thing about ring gaps not done according to the mfg.'s requirement. Plus some people were using these pistons with boosted up turbos and nos systems. He said if you don't follow ring gap instructions, don't blame on the pistons.
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Well the ring thing on kb tims hypers its not true, at leats for these specific pistons, ive compared some stock 400 pistons to these and the top ring on the kb is actually lower, maybe due to the compression height and o deck properties of the pistons....
Maybe its true for most kb pistons but not these...
Maybe its true for most kb pistons but not these...
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From: chicago burbs
our top ring is down lower on the piston due to the valve notch in the bore, if the ring were in the 'normal' location it wouldn't seal the chamber.
any hypereutectic piston is not recommended for severe duty, the alloy is brittle and can/will disintegrate under detonation which is not uncommon with power adders like nos & boost
any hypereutectic piston is not recommended for severe duty, the alloy is brittle and can/will disintegrate under detonation which is not uncommon with power adders like nos & boost
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From: Columbia Falls, Montana
I wish I new they had these about a year ago. I new you could use a cleveland piston with bushed rod, but this would have made mine a bit better. I have a 79 f150 that I had mildly built last year, and it has stock cast pistons, elgin 484in 510ex cam, edlebrock intake, 670 holly avenger, 1 in carb spacer, ported non egr heads, Pro Comp billet distributer HEI, new wires, plugs, and a pro comp mechanical fuel pump. Thing gets with the program, but after reading what mustangs and fast fords did with a stock 400 by getting the compression up to 9.5 and a set of headers and a electric iginition, and a holley 500cfm two barrel and they made 265hp at 4100rpm and 412 ft lbs tq at 2900rpm. The rest was stock. I am planning on getting a set of headers for mine as soon as possible, but I think I will be building a better motor hopefully within a year. Also need to get the C6 rebuilt since it has 200,000+ miles on it.