Well ya except if the water he has in there boils (212*), he's going to get bubbles. Now I agree with all the fluid exchange he's done here there's bound to be some bubbles in there that need to be flowed out. And those bubbles will cause hot spots.

Albuq F1 Said..."I have NEVER seen bubbling water in a radiator." So you have never pulled a radiator cap off an overheated truck Ross and seen it steam and boil over? I've never seen air either but trust me it exists.


But a point of frustration her may be stemming from the fact that whenever someone has one of these hot engine scenarios, the recommendation is to get the temp gun and take readings. He's done that and given the readings - why is that "bad data."

Also the question was asked, "if you think the temps he took are too hot, then what temps should he find with a normal engine." No answer.

I agree a mechanical temp gauge would give him an accurate intication, and that was recommended early on.

But what happens when he installs that and it reads 175-180* on each side? Is that too hot? Is that normal? IOW, he can't make a judgement on whether the engine is too hot if he doesn't know what "Normal" or "Too Hot" are. We need a benchmark here - what is it?

I feel Larry's pain with this one - he's getting run all over and told to do stuff and when he does, he gets told to do something else.

So let me reask my question (and one he's been asking throughout this and other threads), because I don't see that an internal combustion engine having just run and warmed up and sitting at an idle in a parked truck at 180* is "very hot."

What temperatures should he see when he measures his temps with the gun at a various places on his engine? Can you flathead guys in the know give some examples of places and temperatures - in numbers?

That would certainly be helpful at this pount.

 

Fair enough. It's 90-frickin'-5 out today here in sunny Albuquerque, perfect day for a test.

Location....................Ross temp...............Larry temp
Top tank ....................173-179..................210
DS head (center).............183.....................197
PS head (center)..............183....................197
DS thermostat housing .....173.....................197
PS thermostat housing.......179....................197

My readings are after a 20-minute drive, including 3/4 throttle up a long 6% hill, with a long stop light wait at the top, speeds up to 45 mph (kinda got away from me there!). And did I mention it's 95 and climbing?! All readings are with an infrared laser thermometer.

So from this I would conclude: I'm running 160 deg thermostats (I thought I had 180), and everything is at least 15 degrees cooler than Larry's, the radiator is 30 degrees cooler. My water pumps are NAPA rebuilts, about 8 yrs old (<2,000 miles) and my radiator was rodded and repaired about 8 yrs ago too. I have a flathead car-type 3-blade fan with the dual belt system, a shroud, and all deflectors are in place. My alternator belt is a little loose, which is undoubtedly why the PS is a little warmer than the DS.

 

"The water at the top of the radiator looks a little rusty after the truck runs."

"The water in the radiator was so hot that it was bubbling so I don't know if that is the hot water or I have a head gasket problem."


In a closed and pressurized system, 212 deg won't boil water. I'm concerned with a couple of your descriptions that you may have a headgasket thats allowing combustion gasses to get into the coolant.

If you go back and re-read what I said in your first post on this topic, you'll find your answer. No quick fixes or magic bullets, just lots of hard work so don't get discouraged. So you don't have to look it up, here's what I said....

"IF your block is clean and crack-free and your radiator is clean and your timing in on and your fuel delivery is adequate you won't overheat." You've got to be overlooking one of these.

Changing out T-stats is a waste of time once you know they open approx at the rated temperature. 160's just open faster than 180's, but your temps are way over that anyway, so forget the stats

(EXCEPT - drill at least two 1/8" holes in the rim of the T-stat 180 deg apart before you install them - this allows the air in the head to escape and prevents steam pockets)

When you have opened the cooling system - either T-stats or had a head off or lower hoses off, it is normal for the temp to spike all the way over to HOT until the stat opens, but it should settle down shortly after - and not repeat until you open the system again.

So to summarize, get a mechanical gauge and get an accurate reading.
Make sure you can see light thru your radiator (front to back) so you know air can pass between the fins and tubes.
If it's still hot pull your heads and see if you have a blown head gasket. (Head gaskets are expensive so you don't want to just pull them for the fun of it) While it's open you can also look for cracks between the cylinder walls and the coolant passages ALSO inspect the heads for similar cracks.

If everything else comes up clean, pull the engine and clean the block with home-made scrapers, wires, bottle brushes, etc to get all the casting sand out of the bottom nooks and crannies of the block. Some guys have reported removing between 2 and 3 quarts of sand from their blocks.

You can see where this is going..... no quick fixes and no shortcuts. Welcome to flatheads - when they're right, there's nothing sweeter - but they'll make you work for it. Most guys don't want the bother and they just dump in an sbc. Only a few are strong and proud (and stupid) enough to make a flatty sing. That's up to you.

 

Apologies Ross! And thanks for the info.

Larry has gone back into his #7 post and changed his numbers. The ones he sent me in a PM and he posted in #7 originally were down around 165 on the drivers side and 175 on the passenger side. 177 at the tank top and 175 at mid radiator. He had a hot (266*) temp sender on one side as well. So the forum is being fed mixed information.

The information he originally sent me was not to far out of normal, most were right on the numbers you have if not slightly cooler, and only 3 readings were above 180 degrees - the exhaust manifold reading at 240 and 270* and the one temp sending unit.

You guys can play this game, you know more about these engines than I do. Garbage in garbage out.

 

Normal operating temperature especially for an older vehicle, imo, would be between 180F and 195F. Any colder than that and you aren't running hot enough to have a complete combustion and are going to leave a lot of deposits behind. If you can maintain under 200F, I think you're doing good. Over 200F in a non or low pressurized system is putting you close to the edge of boilover. In newer cars with closed, 15 pound pressurized systems, 220F is not unheard of, and not out of line. They like higher temperatures for lowering emmissions. That's why they have 197F thermostats in them.

When Larry said his thermostat housings read 185F and his oil temp was 177F, it doesn't get much more normal than that. I've yet to see what the problem is. He presented no real symptoms of a problem. His whole belief that he was overheating was looking at a known incorrect-reading gauge.

 

I'm glad I took the time to measure, I've been concerned with the calibration of my (stock) gauge with the CVR. At the time of the readings it was a needle-width above the middle mark. I'd say it's pretty accurate. I did take a shot on my headers too, and it surprised me; one side was 40 degrees cooler. I'm thinking I need to adjust my idle circuits.

Larry, I've lost all track; has this engine been apart lately? There have been a number of cases on 8BA's of either the wrong head gaskets being supplied, or the gaskets being swapped left-bank to right-bank -- it matters. If this is done, it essentially blocks or restricts one of the rear head passages.

 

Ibrauer

Couple of check points to look for, and just trying to help you here.

Do you have a fan shroud?
Do you have the belly pan installed under the rad?
Are you useing a low pressure cap 3-4 lbs. as this is correct?

Are you filling the Rad over the top of the core? To the top of core is correct, anymore and it will puke it out. Thats why they call it an expansion tank at top of rad.
Try a gallon of vinegar and top up with water, run for about 15 minutes then let stand for a couple of hours. This will loosen all the lime build up in the cooling system. fire it up again and run for another 15 minutes, let cool then remove the rad cap and lower hoses, all the debris if any should come out in a hurry.
Replace lower hoses vaseline helps with the installing of the lower hoses. Refill with water just to the top of the Rad core, then replace rad cap on loose, start engine and let run. See if this helps, if it doesen't you have at least cleaned your cooling system, it it runs cooler then you have solved your issue.
one other item of interest the Flathead in most cases usually runs a little hotter on the left Bank if there is single exhaust. The dual exhaust helps run it a little cooler, as it breaths better, and emits heat faster.
So look at the questions I have listed at top as these are a must for a proper cooling system.
Keep in mind the guage and the sending units can drive you crazy.

I hope these suggestions help you in solving your issue, I went through the same thing.
One more item if you don't have water in your oil, or steam comming out the tail pipe then the heads should be okay. Also better to have water in the oil then antifreeze.
The new oils are bad enough without need of that.

I sure hope this may help you and keep us posted, good luck.

 

I don't want to cause a big fight over this and the good people that have helped me in the past but it kind of looks like I have crated just what I didn't want to happen. I am very concerned with this engine and it is causing a big fuss so I guess I will do what I know to do one thing at a time and let it go as far as the complaints. I have never owned an old truck like this nor a flathead so all is new to me. I am used to an engine that runs sitting all day and never gets hot. I have got a lot of good information from you people and I try to take every word to heart to do what I am told. I have to apologies for the trouble I have caused between people. The only thing that confuses me is one person will say just use water and the other will say it is because I don't have any antifreeze in the engine. What am I suppost to do listen to both and make up my own mind which way to go with this. I have good faith in what people have told me to do and I have done most of it except for the mechanical gauge part and you bet before I do any more complaining I will have one on the engine. I do realize that everyone has his or her way of doing things and coming up with answers. I want to hear each and every one of you all apinon on what could be wrong but to cause an argument between folks is not worth it. I put the 180' therostats in the engine yesterday and I found under one of the housings a round part I don't know where it came from nor what it is from. It was laying right where the large water port was in the head. If you want to see a pic I will send it if not that is ok with me. I would like to know what it is though. I'm going to take it one thing at a time like Julie told me to and go from there. Tomorrow I am going to remove the water pumps and check the impelers. If I find they are ok I will go to the next advice I have gotten. I am sorry for the big trouble I have caused everyone.
Larry Brauer
713-410-7481
braular@yahoo.com

 

Larry, the last thing you have caused is trouble, we have all been there and like you said , each and everyone has therir own opinion.
Believe me when I say there is no argument started, at least not on my end and i believe all others share the same point I am versing here.

So once again you haven't caused and arguments. This forum is here for the benifit of helping those in need of assistance.

I myself have been into stock Flathead fords for years and have had my ups and downss, but its all part of getting to know your vehicle.
Once you have achieved this, you will be able to pass on your experience, and help to another.
All the best to you, and i am sincere in saying this. 5 Star

 

Larry, we're not upset with each other or with you.

You should see it when we get testy with each other. This thread has been pretty mild, so don't worry about it. It's all good. We actually do respect each other and appreciate the other's viewpoints - even when we disagree.

If your temp figures are what Julie posted in #19, you don't have a problem.
If your temp figures are what you posted in #7 then you might have a problem, so follow the advice we gave you - one step at a time.

Keep in touch and let us know what you find with the waterpumps.
Tim

 

Larry, there's no arguments going on - maybe a dash of frustration - but we need the straight scoop from you in order to give you consistant suggestions.

Every person in this thread has suggested you get the mechanical gauges and install them. I'm not sure why, but you seem to want to do multiple things at a time and not want to do that one consistant and critical suggestion.

LARRY - DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL YOU INSTALL THE MECHANICAL TEMP GAUGE AND GET A READING! Post the reading here.

Let's take this one step at a time and avoid any further confusion.

 

And my overheat problem took 13 pages of answers til we found it (altho the answer (thermostat) was in the first 5 posts really!, final answer: wrong thermostat type).. you are only at 2 pages..!!

Sam

 

True Sam, but it didn't take 2 pages to get accurate numbers from you and to know you are ACTUALLY overheating. We don't even know that here yet!

 

Looking at my numbers and Larry's, using the infrared, do you really doubt he has a problem? It would definitely help to have gauge readings but I don't think he's imagining there is a problem.

I'd be more interested in compression test results at this point.

Larry, I can't remember; have the head gaskets been replaced in recent times on this engine? With 8BA's, it is possible to have the head gaskets flipped, bank-to-bank, which partially blocks some of the head passages.

There are also some brands of head gaskets out there that are missing one of the cooling feeds to the head from the block. See below.

 

Wow, Ross, that's a huge boo-boo! Thanks for that info! There's probably more than one of us flatty newbies that never would have known or realized that the gasket could be wrong. Do you have a recommendation (or a warning), for future reference?