I'd race a stock 302 with my stock 300.


-=Whittey=-

[edit] Is that Stafford, CT?

 

No, and it won't outrun one either which is exactly my point.

 

No, Whittey, it's Safford, Arizona.

By the way, I'd love to watch you guys lose that race too. 70 HP (depending on the model year) is a lot of difference in a drag race.

 

This is a recording......I have raced many 302's that were equipped comparably to my 300. I have yet to lose a race with one. That extra 70 hp doesn't do you any good until past half track, by that time the race is over.

 

I can listen to your recording or my experience. I can beat a 302 through the mud, but not down the highway. I used to race my nova against a guy in a '95 4wd stock 302 and although he never beat me, he kept right next to me. I like your recording, it does sound good, but so do those Chebby commercials...

BTW, I do love my 300, I am not putting it down. I love when I come out of the mud pit before my opponent in his 400, or 350. It makes them steaming mad.

 

The 300 isn't going to win on the highway stock. But then again, if you only raced on the highway i'd have to start calling you a ricer


-=Whittey=-

 

nah that's racin at highway speeds down 35mph zones.

 

I find this conversation regarding 302s and the 300 quite interesting. I am not an expert on engines, and probably do not have the experince anyone else has with these engines. So I will try to restrict my claims about either engine, and base what I say on pure logic and what has already been said.
A 302, makes its torque at a higher rpm. Right? A 300, makes its torque at insanly low rpm. Right? So, if I have to twist a 302, say 1000rpm more than I do 300 to pull the same load, then it puts more strain and wear on the 302. Which would eventually lead to it wearing out sooner. Not to mention the V8 has more moving parts, which means there are more parts that can break. That is why we hear about so many people with well over 200,000 miles on their inline six. But, the 300 has a long stroke, and therefore peak rpm is limited, and lower than a 302 V8. If an engine can turn more revs, than in likely hood, if it is built up properly, it will make more horse power than an engine that can't turn so many revs. Would that be correct? So, what all this conversation boils down to is this. We have two engines, both of similar size, but one is a work engine, and the other is your standard everyday engine. I could be wrong, but that is what I have gathered from all the other post. If you want an engine to pull loads and stay with you until you decide to get it rid of it, go with a inline six. You do sacrifice some things, so it comes down to choice. One engine will out do the other in one area, and the other way around also. It depends on what you need, and what you like,. Not really that one engine is better than the other in all aspects. There is hardly an engine out there better than another in all aspects.

 

What is the RPM limit on a 300 then?

Here is the scoup. A 4" stroke is considered long, but it really isn't that bad. The major limiting factor is the valvetrain. People are taking long stroke engines to insanely high rpm's when they have a DOHC head. A stock steel crank, Eagle rods (6, not 8) and a set of quality pistons (JE, Arias, etc) and i'll run the valvetrain off the top of any common automotive OHV engine. Long stroke does not mean more torque. It does not mean low rpms. Its just another way to make more displacement. Remember that next time some little 1.8 liter honda buzzes by you (being as he has a longer stroke than your 302).


-=Whittey=-

 

Does the Ford 300 inline six have DOHC? All the ones I have heard of don't. Given, I only have looked into the older ones, like the one in my own vehicle. Anything with DOHC can turn more revs than a traditional push rod engine. But why does a longer stroke not produce more torque? What does? All my sources tell me that a longer stroke does produce more torque at the low end. What are your sources that indicate otherwise? I am not an expert, so I could be wrong. But I would like to hear some evidence againt my current thoughts before I decide to change them.
With a ricer burner as everyone seems to so affectionatly call the high revving imports, would having a small bore have anything to do with the fact that they can turn so many rpms? Not to mention that most have a DOHC set up.

 

Your DOHC point is exactly my point. DOHC is a breathing thing. The valvetrain on the 302 is the same as on a 300 so the valvetrain would be the limitation. Not the stroke or anything else.

As for stroke producing more torque, think on this. Every revolution, the 300 has a 4" bore firing and moving down its power stroke 11.94" (3 x 3.98). The 302 has a 4" bore firing and moving down its power stroke 12" (4 x 3.00). The big differences in torque come from displacement and compression, with a smaller amount due to mix quality.

Again, your point is mine. When people can take a daily driven 1.8 liter engine with 3.4+ inches of stroke and spin it to 10,000 rpm (certainly not stock, but streetable in any case) you know its not the stroke thats causing you problems. In the case of a stock 300, it doesn't breathe. Each cylinder in a 300 breathes less than a cylinder in a 302, though the 302 has 25% smaller cylinders. As I said, compression(dynamic) and displacement make torque.

Honda 1.8L VTech. 6200 rpm peak torque. 3.43" stroke. Stock. I wouldn't call that a stump puller, would you? Just proves that if you let the head breathe, you'll make more power.


-=Whittey=-

 

I still don't think I am understanding what you are trying to say Whittey. You are saying that if a head breaths better it will make more power. Well, what does that mean? And how come the calculations for the inline six, which has a 4" bore, didn't have a 4 in them, like it did for the 302? What are those numbers in relation to? Are you saying that a DOHC set up, which means 4 valves per cylinder in most cases, will allow a head to breath better? What if you just have bigger valves? Isn't there a point where the size of valves become detrimental to the engines performance though? And your VTEC engine, it has four valves per cylinder, but how VTEC works is that two of those four valves don't kick in until a certain rpm, because having only two valves working at lower rpm helps the engine make better power. At least that is what I have read in countless performance magazines, both about imports and domestic vehicles. I agree that higher compression results in more torque, that is why diesel engines make huge torque, but I still hold that a longer stroke makes for more low end torque. But keep trying to explain please?

 

more/bigger valves is not the key for the 300, though they do help. one of the major reasons why the 300 doesnt make the big hp numbers is because the head ports themselves cant flow *****. i can almost quarentee(sp?) that with equal size chambers and valves, a 300 I-6 will pull the same amount of hp as a 302 V-8.

displacment is the key argument in almost every horsepower battle. the 302 just doesnt have that much of an advantage over the 300 when it comes down to it, its actually less than 1 ci of displacement between the two. now a 351 vs a 300 is a differnet story, the windsor will outpull almost any 300 just because of the displacment advantage it holds.

the long stroke doesnt make more torque, but rather moves the peak further down the rev range, while a larger bore will let you have more revs. the 300 has both of these, a very wide (390 ci size) bore and a huge stroke (comparable to a ford 400, IIRC). This puts a 300 in the big-block category of engines, even though it lacks the total number of cubes of those two motors. and big blocks wil always, always, make more power than any small block (excepting boosted, which in efectiveness does the same thing).more

 

With a head that flowed the same numbers as a stock 302 head, and a cam that is comparable(stock 300 has all of .249 or .247 lift @ .050, depending on gearing(2.75 and higher got the .247 cam) the 300 would walk all over the 302. As for 300 VS 351, I pulled my fairly mild 300 for a re-build, and stuck in a farly mild 351W in it's place while it was being done... The 351W just didn't have the power the 300 did down low, and, with the way my truck was set up(2.75 gears and 31's) it wasn't as fast....
Evan

 

the long intake runners has a lot to do with the lower hp number but more tq. no need to rev a motor out high anyway to win a race. torque gets u out the hole anyway. i know my trucks qwick as hell thru 1st and 2nd (auto) and i can beat or keep up with most trucks