That would actually depend on the situation. You would have to crunch the numbers and see, but some cases it doesn't. It forces one to be more efficient and the more efficient you are the better you are. Pollution, despite it's health issues, is not being efficient in the production process. That's what it is. If you are able to clean it up, more exactly by being able to use every bit of it, you actually become more efficient.

If you really want to know how badly, if at all, having epa rules affects advantage or disadvantage, I would suggest taking a good environmental econ class. You'll learn when it's better to pollute and pay the fine(after investing that money to earn extra money, but that's another story) and when it's better to invest in more efficient or in some cases cleaner tech.

I will also say this is coming from a person that isn't sold on man made global warming(too many soils classes), so don't think you "hearing" this from a global warming nut.

 

I didn't mean to emply that you were a global warming nut,sorry. Do tell how soil and global warming go together.

 

You can tell differences in environmental conditions due to the conditions found within the soil. Kinda like using the tree rings to determine environmental conditions, bigger the ring or a certain color means this kind of conditions that the tree dealt with. Same kinda thing with soil except obviously you aren't dealing with rings, but soil makeup and "genetics" if you will. Specifics with regard to trees or soils that I don't know as well, I've had a few soils class and only 1 forestry class, so I'm not an expert on those. I just know enough to know when to question something when it doesn't make sense or seem to not make sense.

Now with regard to animal science and with regard to economics(particularly with agriculture, which does deal with the environment for obvious reasons) that's more more thing.

 

I agree 100% this, All this global warming stuff has been shown to be a hoax. We have seen the so called people in the know clamoring to stop the truth from getting out, look at the response of the emails that surfaced about this. They wanted to punish who let the info out; disregarding the fact that the info debunked all their claims about their fabricated crisis. The BIBLE clearly speaks about this if people would look and see what is actually going on. Gov't is not the answer it is the problem. People are on here saying the gov't should regulate this and that because we can't control ourselves PLEASE Look at what your socialist gov't has done so far. You are worried about your kids breathing clean air, well you better be worried about them breathing that clean air while living on the streets. Your gov't can't seem to control itself and how much money it drops down the drain. Tell me where in all academia do economists say that having a 13 trillion dollar debt is a great thing for the country. Your kids are going to have to pay for this and trying to choke down the AMERICAN economy because we are more successful than any other country on the face of the planet is Treasonous. I am stopping now before I really get fired up.

 

WELL SAID.

 

Ford could make up extra money if they got into the customization business, why not partner up, or sub out to some of the leading aftermarket product companies. Give the consumer the option to order it by spec, something similar to when you order a PC, factory overclocked CPU's and Video Card. Ok mr Ford Dealer. I would like an additional 100 ft/lbs of torque, and 100 hp please above the base specs. The have different interior and exterior packages and people are willing to pay alot more for some of them. So why not some under the hood packages. Have BANKs. Make the intakes and charge air coolers, and other big name companies provide the tuning, and the exhaust.

I mean in the end, youths truck can be more efficient, or give more power with the same efficiency, aren't we saving fuel, and if were saving fuel isn't that better for the environment , and isn't that what they're trying to accomplish anyway.

My local ford dealer has a big sticker in they're window that says , Authorized Roush Dealer. I know it's mostly for the new GT 350, and 500's. But still they are recognizing the desire for performance/aftermarket stuff and a car like that. If I'm paying close to, or in excess of $50K for a pick up truck I want to be able to customize stuff too.

 

I'm sorry but I wouldn't trust people's intrepretation in the bible, especially considering that high up people in the clergy actually are calling into question quite alot of the bible(quite a bit of it from verses from Luke) and they are trying to get a newer version, supposedly truer version of the bible and a version that would also omit the line "forgive them Father..." perhaps one of the most quoted lines of the bible. It amazes me how anyone can trust something written down(rather or not it is inspired by God, it still was written down by man and has to go through man) by man, translated by man, published by man and then intrepretated by man, but one of the core tenants of that religion is that man is inheritantly flawed? Let's not forget that when the words were written down, chances are they meant something else then they do now. Apocalypse back then meant a revelation, not end of days as most people think of it now. How many more mistakes along those lines. One version of the bible actually has Moses described with having horns and that was an official version as well. This could very will have started out being true and accurate, but I have a hard time believe that what we have now is(particularly since people whose lives it is studing the bible, claim that there are problems with it, who is to say that they are right or wrong and if the "official" bible does change and they are wrong, what then?)

I could go further, but this is beyond the scope of this forum and I don't know how much of what I've already typed they would tolerate.



I direct you to the the SO2 permit program that is I think almost a couple of decades old by now. It actually used market incentives(selling of tradeable permits) in order to achieve a desired result, along the lines of what they are proposing now. Results of that were as follows:

1. It didn't cost anywhere near what the original price tag was believed to have cost.

2. "You" actually have had a higher standard of living in the areas that were affected by SO2. Which included less morbidity due to reduction in air borne pathogens(and when you start talking about saving lives(where the statistical value of a life is high) then marginal benefits rapidly outdo marginal costs)

3. The firms that were "affected" by having do deal with tradeable permits actually experienced growth both in terms of finances and physically. You have to remember, firms that are already are efficient enough within the confines of the law are able to sell those permits to companies that aren't as efficient and make a profit that way. That can be huge depending on the price of the permits which is typically regulated by how much the government sells(or just dumps) or buys back at any one particular time. Which also helps keep down the speculative price spikes that you see in other commodities like oil, and other ag. products.

If there is an open market for something, then people will exploit it until their MC>MB and that is typically well beyond the substainable limits of what they are taking out. Fisheries is the best example of that. In fact, one area off the Nothern Coast here(I think it was for lobster), you actually had 4 of the biggest firms ban to gather to regulate those waters and prevent other people from trolling after lobster. Along the same lines of what the government does with fishing permits in public waters. Except those firms just "bully" others from going in there. Now this is the only example of a private firm(s) doing so, but thier profits are very good because they don't have the smaller people just getting what they can and get out.

I'm telling you, if you really want to know if something should be regulated or not and how it should be regulated, particularly along the lines of what we are talking about then take a few Ag. Econ classes and an Environmental Econ. class.


You are talking about different programs that accomplish things in different manners. Not the most accurate of means of judging something.

Well first off, you do have a bunch of atleast right now, respected economists that are calling for yet another stimulis, so there are some that are more worried about jump starting the economy even more at this time then the debt.

Second, with regard to the tradeable permit system I'm talking about. This actually does a couple of things. One it creates a market incentive for companies to control inefficiency(which is pollution really) and it also helps generate revenue to actually control the deficit. Now it really is a small drop in the bucket, but don't lump all programs together, there are some that actually have merit to them. The SO2 Permit program is regarding as a success no matter who you talk to and if they do a program along those lines, it can be successful as well. However, do not lump a program like this that creates a market incentive with other programs that do not.


Actually we have a consuming economy more then a production economy now and when that happened(during the baby boomer generation) that's when things started down this path. "You" are going to have to change that, before we can actually get away from this debt or find a more sustainable means of how we do something.

Now everything that I've said about regulation should be considered rather or not you believe in global warming. I'm not a fan of it being caused by man as I'm sure most on here are not as a reason, atleast not with the evidence so far. However, pollution is inefficiency and it does have health issues that are not desputed by people. You can mitigate those in a market incentive way, but in order to start that market incentive, you do have to have some government regulation. Economist will tell you that if you were to go into those classes that I mentioned where the teachers(as economists) have dealt with this market externality. Now you have to be careful with the parameters of the program, but programs like the one I'm suggesting(and have been suggested by economists well respected in this field) have been successful with little to no impact to the firms that were affected by the program and it saw an increase revenue for the government as well as less healthcare costs for the government for those individuals that were getting some type of government aid.

I'm not a fan of all government programs, particularly welfare, but there are some that have merit and don't lump them all together particularly when "you" are judging them wrongly. I'm not a fan of global warming as caused by man, now man contributing or natural global warming not too many people focus on the 2nd one so I don't have an opinion on that as of yet, I tend to believe the last one(which believes the cycle of warming and cooling naturally). So toss aside global warming caused by man, you still would have economists going for a tradeable permit system(considering I have a masters in Ag. Econ., I would like to be able to call myself an economist, but I'll leave that up to "you" to decide) and they aren't factoring in global warming in their equations, they are factoring in marginal cost, marginal benefit, and statistical value of life.

 

i KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY GETTING ALL FIRED UP AND GETTING MAD AS HELL ABOUT IT.

 

Everyone knows that government run programs are usually flawed. Talk about leaving things to interpretation, take UL certification. They have guidelines and rules that they establish, but those rules and guidelines are interpreted differently depending on the inspector that's reviewing the product. Two different inspectors have been to our plant to review an enclosure, and each one had a different opinion of the validity for UL certification. This has taken place almost everytime we call UL in for certification. Even when they send a product to their labs different opinions are formed.

Same thing with the environment, there are lot's of opinions formed on information that is basically a very smalll sampling to formulate a factual conclusion as to what is acutlly causing global warming.

I'm with Trailer Builder though, global warming is probably 1% human cause and 99% a fact of nature.

 

That's why I'm taking out global warming caused by man out of the picture and what I've been trying to say is still sound despite global warming no longer on the table.


I would definitaly say it's more natural then man made, I don't want to say the ratio just because we don't have perfect models to isolate it further. My Agriculture background makes me want to say more natural then man-made though.

 

I'm with you on this one.

 

Well Tex you put alot of info out there but. I am just a person who graduated high school and went out and started a buisness, worked my tail off to get somewhere and I'll be damed if I will lay down for what Economists call for. I look at things simply if they work you should pay them. if they are handicapped and can't work we should help them but if you are just lazy and milking the system you get the boot. This is called Tough love. The gov't should learn a thing or two about how this country was founded and why its great. Capitalism is the answer not a cradle to the grave nanny state. That is the problem now no self motivation, people these days work harder at trying to avoid a job than if they actually had one, and as for economists, I don't care who says what it is my hard earned money and I will say where it goes not some egg head from Washington who has never met a payroll or had to meet a budget (and stick to it), as for stimulus; if you want to stimulate this economy give us our money back and we will spend it the way we see fit on things that make sense to us and we will turn this thing around in a heart beat. As for bail outs if you are in the red and can't pay your bills CLOSE THE DOORS. This garbage of too big to fail is a bunch of crap, look at all the money dumped into GM for what? They have their hand out again; its bad business. Business is very simple make a product people want or need keep your overhead low and make more money than you spend, period. I don't need any fancy education to know that. The principle works everyplace it is tried if you can't afford it don't buy it, if you want something you can't afford get a second job save your money then buy it, when you enter into a contract you pay what you agreed to and do what you say its called accountability and responsibility two word that no one uses anymore. Now its I want what he has so the gov't must get it for me. WRONG!! Get off your butt, put down the video games, pull up your pants and work for it like I did, if you try to take what I have earned you will have to pull it out of my cold dead hand if you survive the fight. There is no program the gov't has that has ever come in under budget and showed a profit, look at this health care monstrosity if it was such a great thing why the need to bribe people for their votes, why do it all in secret, and why when over half of the country is against it are they still ramming it down our throats, its called corruption and these are the people who are supposed to represent us? I don't see any representation in it at all. As for the Bible I do not leave it up to others interpretation I read it daily and trust the Lord God who made all this to direct and teach me. We are not pond scum we are divinely created, this country was founded on this book and that is why we are the most blessed country on the planet. As for the inspired word of God, your right God spoke through the writers who wrote it down, inspired is God breathed, God said it and guided the writers as they wrote it. Believing this is called faith trust in what is not seen, I don't care how much the world and the pc crowd want to get God out of everything "As for me my house will serve the Lord". There is a reason they want to get God out of everything, you see these principles are what founded this country and if they can remove or suppress them enough then they are free to mold it into whatever they want this country to look like. The gov't will let you know what they are most afraid of, just look at what they attack the hardest. This is not an attack against anyon, it is just principles I and most of America believe in and need to hold fast to. I hope come Nov we get some "Change we can believe in"

 

DAYUM trailer builder!! It would have been easier to read with a few paragraphs to break it up but damn that was some good stuff. If you ever run for office, I'll take a bumper sticker or two. And with that, this thread is probably headed for the club or locked up, but I'm

 

sorry for the long post but I got on a roll and didn't want to fall off my soap box. As for public office I have often thought about it but like a lot of people I have done things that I am not proud of when I was younger, plus the Washington establishment would not like my way of thinking or my attitude towards what they have and are doing. LOL

 

I'm not going to try and argue with any socio-economic issues and I'll be the first to admit I turn my back on the conservation department and the EPA.

The reality is that there are suspect (the global warming influenced) regulations being forced on auto companies and the consumer isn't interested in the results. The government has decided to step in and force those results on us. Half the country doesn't even believe the dubious claims in the first place and yet they are forced to pay through the nose for it.

This just occurred to me, it certainly sounds like government forced religion.