>>i just read it over and i do agree i blew up. the use of
>>"idiot" sounded bad. i took his post as an attack to me and
>>my religion instead of just a couple of questions so that he
>>could understand why we did things.i do see hes been here a
>>long time i do have respect for all his stars and i have no
>>place to tell him hes wrong. i apologize i took it all the
>>wrong way. im sure dinosaur fan is a very good person and is
>>trying to discover new things. for me, i need to think about
>>things before i talk, my mouth always gets me in trouble. i
>>get offended easily especially on religious or political
>>matters and im working on it. the way i posted my response
>>was uncalled for and hypocritcal. how can i call myself a
>>good christian when i call somebody and idiot? ...wow makes
>>me look at myself as a person. but anyways i hope
>>dinosaurfan excepts my apology and anybody else who reads my
>>post.
>
>
>It is nice to see an apology......very rare these days. You
>are to be commended for your humility.....shows the Holy
>Spirit is working within you.

I agree. I personally agreed with the answer about my church but not the way they were stated. It takes a big a person to apologize. This is the type of subject that can cause such reactions. For this reason, I always think long and hard about what I'll put. I have strong beliefs but I also agree to disagree with other as we are all intitled to our opinions.

 

Apology accepted without any problem....I have pretty thick skin- it would seem that UmagDan has me pegged pretty well, I enjoy the occasional thought provoking question. I am not certain that I could read the book with an open mind, I'll have to think about that one. but since I'm still awake, heres a few random thoughts......Roman Catholic churches have some statues in them....some that look like they might be angels and some that would appear to be Jesus on the cross....It was my understanding that we were not supposed to try to make a physical represntation of anything that is in heaven. Some of the carvings in the RC dhurch would seem to me to violate that commandment. Jews have a Menorah, which we understand to be all that is allowed. As too sunday worship...lots of the old testament has references to the 7th day, and the new says nothing about switching. If the specific day doesn't matter, why have so many churches switched to sunday ? Christ and all of his followers were 7th day jews. I believe Yahweh intended this as a sign or mark of devotion to him-there were lots of Pagans around that worship the Sun, on sunday, and we are supposed to be differant from them. When Yeshua instructed his diciples on how to pray, he told them to pray only to thier father in heaven. I've had the impression that praying to deceased believers was not okay. I address my prayers to Yahweh, his the in charge after all, not Abe or Moses or anyone else. The mother of God ? No I can't see that one. As I see it, Mary was an ordinary woman who was chosen to perform an exceptional service for God. Afterwards, she and Joe had several children, including one of the 12 disciples, James. There is also the idea that 'the dead know nothing' ( Ecclesiates 9:5 ) are we talking about physical death, or spiritual death or what ? Are dead believers not in heaven, but rather waiting for Christ's return, so they can be awakened and judged -'asleep in Christ' -can't remember the verse, I'll have to look it up. As for christmas- we have recieved no instruction by our Saviour to celebrate his bithday. Even if we wanted to, Dec 25 is not the right time. But, Dec 25, the winter solstice, does have a rather unsavory reputation as the time of 'Saturnalia', and I would rather not have anything to do with that. 'Easter', I believe, is a pagan fertility celebration. Believers ought to be celebrating Passover. It was Messiah Yeshua's death on Passover (the ultimate sacrifice) that paid the blood price for us. We are saved because he died, for us. The book of Leviticus has a whole list of celebrations for us that most Christian churches don't bother with, and I wonder why ? It would seem to me that Christmas and Easter were added in 'after the fact'. I'm going to bed now, I can't think straight anymore. Mayvbe more tomorrow. DF

 

Roman Catholic churches have some statues in them....some that look like they might be angels and some that would appear to be Jesus on the cross....It was my understanding that we were not supposed to try to make a physical represntation of anything that is in heaven.

I think this problem is just a difference in interpretation, which most conflicts over religion are. I always thought that we were not supposed to worship the statues, which we do not do.

As too sunday worship...lots of the old testament has references to the 7th day, and the new says nothing about switching. If the specific day doesn't matter, why have so many churches switched to sunday ? Christ and all of his followers were 7th day jews. I believe Yahweh intended this as a sign or mark of devotion to him-there were lots of Pagans around that worship the Sun, on sunday, and we are supposed to be differant from them.


I honestly do not have the answer for this one, but I can sure find out for you . But about the Pagen thing, do you wear a wedding ring, if so that is also a pagen tradition.

When Yeshua instructed his diciples on how to pray, he told them to pray only to thier father in heaven. I've had the impression that praying to deceased believers was not okay. I address my prayers to Yahweh, his the in charge after all, not Abe or Moses or anyone else. The mother of God ?

Again a difference in interpretaion, Catholics believe that Jesus had no brothers or sisters. At that time, brother was a term often used that actually meant cousin, can I say that this for a fact, no I wasn't there, just what I believe. I think you may be misinterpreting the parayer to mary thing. It is not the same as praying to God. Its like asking a friend to pray for you when you are on hard times or something like that, not like when you pray to God and thank him.

Easter may occur at the same time as a pagen holiday I don't know, but that is not what we are celebrating.


We do celebrate passover as well in the Catholic church.

It would seem to me that Christmas and Easter were added in 'after the fact'. I'm going to bed now, I can't think straight anymore. Mayvbe more tomorrow. DF

Like I said a lot of religion conflics come into play because people, depending on their background, interpret things differently. There is still so much I don't know about the Catholic church. I learn new things all the time.

 

As to why Christians worship on Sunday, I refer you to Acts 20:7.


Chuck

 

>As to why Christians worship on Sunday, I refer you to Acts
>20:7.
>
>
>Chuck

That would be verse 7.

Chuck

 

>>As to why Christians worship on Sunday, I refer you to Acts
>>20:7.
>>
>>
>>Chuck
>
>That would be verse 7.
>
>Chuck

Well, That verse says they did it. Doesn't say why. Of course at that point is sounds more like a teaching session than a worship service. It could have evlovled from there. I think that due to persecutions of early christians they had to meet in secret. In order to keep up appearances they might have had to continue worshiping on the 7th day with other groups.


>Roman Catholic churches have some statues in them....some that look >like they might be angels and some that would appear to be Jesus on >the cross....It was my understanding that we were not supposed to >try to make a physical represntation of anything that is in heaven.

So what? My house has pictures on the walls. Doesn't mean I worship them. Neither do I worship the statues in my church.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-Nov-02 AT 09:53 AM (EST)]Man, I leave for the weekend and you guys almost swerve out of control. It is disheartening to see name calling but it is good to see apologies. You guys can argue specific points about specific religions until eternity and I doubt you will change each other's mind set. It is good to see healthy debate though. Try and debate your philosophy and your convictions, not your worship and litany.

As far as stautes. They are like pictures of one's relatives on your walls at home, or the bust of Caesar or David. I don't think people worship these objects, they are just reminders of distinctive people who have come before us.

Now remember guys: fight nice!

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-Nov-02 AT 11:03&nbsp;AM (EST)]<snip>
> The book of
>Leviticus has a whole list of celebrations for us that most
>Christian churches don't bother with, and I wonder why ? It
>would seem to me that Christmas and Easter were added in
>'after the fact'. I'm going to bed now, I can't think
>straight anymore. Mayvbe more tomorrow. DF

I'm sure there are some other things mentioned in Leviticus that you and we both don't observe. For exampe in an open letter to Dr Laura someone wrote tounge in cheek:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great
deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When
someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to
best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for
the Lord (Lev 1). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to
them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this
day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual
uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most
women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they
are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans,
but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he
should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10),
it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my
sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is
there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples,
even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may
I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same
field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread
(cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
(Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do
with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Edit added:
PS I didn't add the smileys. They just appeared on their own.

 

76: Brilliant! I can't stop laughing. I guess we will now see a firestorm of criticism, you blasphemer, you!

 

Thats a great article 76supercab

 

interesting.....


I guess I'm missing something but the reason we don't celebrate all those is because Leviticus is in the old testement. The Jews will continue to observe those traditions because they are still under the Laws of Moses. Christians don't because we are not under that law. Christ dying and raising from the dead gave us a direct line to God. We can go to the Father directly now. Does this help??

 

Lil' Red is correct.

I admit, taken in the context in which it is presented (open letter),it is funny.Otherwise, it borders on Judaism-bashing.I'm not saying it is, just that it borders.

However,the purpose of those commandments in the Old Testament was so that the Israelites would be a people "set apart". None of those laws applied to anyone except Jews. At that time. If any "god" had a "chosen" people, then wouldn't you expect them to have special rules and requirements?

Now we have the New Testament. Jesus is the once and only needed sacrifice for whosoever will to be cleansed of sin. According to the New Testament, the "Law" was simply to show people where they fell short in view of God's righteousness. The Jews rejected Jesus and therefore they still choose to live under the Law of Moses.

According to the Apostle Paul, we (Christians) are free from the Law. Never to be bound by it again. Does this mean we can sin or do whatever we like and God will turn a blind eye because we're forgiven?

Nay.

We are told to model ourselves and our lives after Christ. That's why we still believe in the Ten Commandments, the Gospels, the Letters to the Churches, etc. That's what "Christian" means--Christ-like.

My belief is that God's Word is eternal and unchanging. However, people tend to get in trouble when they start interpreting the scriptures out of context. It's an EASY thing to make a passage say whatever you'd like for it to say. It's done all the time by false teachers, televangelists wanting money, etc. You have to take it in context. That's why, as a Christian, a person should pray earnestly for understanding and wisdom, NOT just what their particular church or pastor or priest says, but what meaning THEY THEMSELVES derive from it AFTER prayer and meditation on it.

That said, I did want to throw in a few more qustions into the mix. First off, a lot of people on this thread have said that Christians are intolerant of other beliefs. I, for one, would like to ask the question of which religion of the world IS tolerant of another?

Islam? The #1 murderer of Christians (and other faiths) worldwide. Hinduism? Nope. #2 murderer of Christians worldwide. Surely Buddhists are passive you say. Yes, to everyone but Christians. #3 murderers of Christians worldwide. Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know of ANY Christian denomination that advocates the MURDER of unbelievers. And some were saying that Christians were "Intolerant"?!

The other thing I wanted to point out was that, like I said in my early posts in this thread, proof of the existance of God is a 50/50 burden. I can't prove to you that there is a God, and you cannot prove there is no God. A number of times the term, "PROVE IT" was thrown out. Well, if one says there is no God,or that the Bible was written by a bunch of guys who were saying things out of their head or that were no longer relevant, I say "PROVE IT". It cannot be done. Simple as that.

I agree with Brien. This is a volatile topic, and I highly doubt that anyone will get their beliefs changed in this setting. I also agree with most here that true discussion begins when beliefs are challenged. Like him, I know, and am secure in, my beliefs.So I am enjoying this thread for the most part.

My hope, as I stated in my very first reply in the original thread, is that maybe it will get someone to think about it more. Whichever direction our beliefs take us, I hope we can remain civil and courteous.

P.S. I was always taught to never discuss religion or politics and this forum is rife with both!!!




Chuck

 

Actually now that I think about it, I DO follow A) in the letter above. Heck I even usaully do it on the 7th day. Maybe I could offer my special sauce to the autor of the open letter and it would be more pleasing to his neighbors.

 

rbrendel:

Can you add to your answer below in light of my questions that follow? Please use scripture to back up your answers.

>>Why would one pray to Mary,
>>asking her to pray on your behalf ? Shes dead and in the
>>ground, where does the idea that dead believers can
>>intercede for you come from ? [b]Thats a question a 4 year old in Sunday school would ask. I hope you agree with me that she is the mother of God, according to the scripture she had no sin. In the scripture she prayed constantly. Did you have a mom? i bet you had some meaningful talks with her. Im sure you have asked her to help you out with some of your problems. We are just asking Mary to help us out, whats wrong with that?


Can you tell me/us what scripture states "she had no sin". In Romans 3:23 the bible states "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" All is one of those logic words which by definition includes Mary.

Why do you feel the need to ask Mary for help? In 1 Timothy 2:5 the bible states "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," Therefore, I pray to God or to Jesus my mediator.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-Nov-02 AT 11:02&nbsp;PM (EST)]take a look at this http://www.catholicoutlook.com/objmary1.html

i do not feel obligated to pray to Mary, i simply ask her to pray for me. the best way to explain why i say the Hail Mary and such, is because, she is Jesus's mother, she spends a large portion of her life praying for Jesus and all of the other souls, and i believe she is still praying. there are plenty of passages in the bible telling how Mary wept and prayed for Jesus, that's where it comes from. there is also a sense of satisfaction for me to know that i have another mother up there. Catholics do not worship Mary, they simply ask for her to pray for us. Just like how you ask other people to pray for you at a time of need or dispair. You know when you think you are going to die you scream mommy or something like that? I usually start saying the Hail Mary when im scared or something. Naturally you run to your mommy when you are little and something bad happens, sometimes even when your grown up. Well Mary is the big mommy. You see? You get the idea, i can ellaborate later but im tired. Im not a scholar or anything so don't expect me to give the best answer but i do my best! :-)