removed the hellwig
New User
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 10
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good question ! Some of us believe it was just FoMoCo being FoMoCo i.e. being "cheap" without regard for customer safety.
As Monsta notes, I have no idea what a 2wd EX drives like, nor do I know how many, if any, spring-rate variations there were during the production run of EX's.
A review of auto tech. history of all brands shows numerous questionable decisions made in spite of engineer recommendations. For example, take the first Corvairs. The belly pans were stamped with a place for the sway bar. At the last moment, they figured out a way to save a buck or two per car, left out the sway bar, and presto - Ralph Nader has a good argument. We put sway bars on my brother's Corvair, which turned it back into the vehicle the engineers designed it to be - one hell of a road car!
New User
Joined: Jul 2009
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= = =
sorry about that - my fault. I can now use my orig. one. What happened was some kid took offense at my teasing the diesel guys, and the guys who like big tires and "raised" chassis. Or maybe it was my comment about brakes (I am still trying to figure out how you can get TOTAL brake failure out of any standard modern "dual cylinder - dual hyd. lines" system).
He figured out a way to get me banned - sent me a note saying I was gone for two weeks. The two week deadline to restore my login name came and went, and I still found myself locked out.
So I simply fabricated another name, and got back in.
Too bad there are kids in here with thin skins and no sense of humor. Be assured I would NEVER use hate speech, or vulgarity. And I dont use FOWL language either ( cant speak birdese...! )
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,440
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= = = = = =
you are right -
1) i have no idea how a 2wd EX drives. I have had occasion to drive other types of 2wd vehicles, and have had occasion to read various ASTM and SAE tech. papers, along with other misc. automotive hobbyist and engineering publications. Cant recall a single article recommending that you remove the sway bars to improve ride and stability. Cant recall a single article scolding those who install sway bars on vehicles, suggesting that is unnecessary, etc. Perhaps I missed something...?
2) the reason I have no idea how a 2wd EX drives, is that I love in a rural area where a 2wd anything wouldn't meet our needs. I can understand that if you live in a big city where the climate is mild, and never travel, there wouldn't be a reason to spend the extra money to buy and drag around that front drive mechanism, transfer case, etc.
One neighbor who does have a 2wd car used to make fun of me for getting 4wd vehicles. He once asked me if I ever figured out how many miles a year I drive with the 4wd engaged. His point is well-taken. Probably not over a quarter of a mile - rarely more than a few feet at a time.(not including being able to drag our 7,000 lb boat and its 3,500 lb trailer UP slippery boat ramps) but those few feet at a time when being able to get thru a mud-hole was the difference between a long walk home under hostile conditions.
He stopped making fun of me one icy, slushy night, when the EX was able to pull him SIDEWAYS out of a ditch.
Point is - the 2wd EX's may be an entirely different breed of cat from the 4wd's as to handling. I dont know what your driving, road conditions and requirements are - how much weight you tow, how much difference there is in spring rates, etc.
One thing IS clear - I am not the only one who thinks having sway bars is very important for safe operation of an EX.
you are right -
1) i have no idea how a 2wd EX drives. I have had occasion to drive other types of 2wd vehicles, and have had occasion to read various ASTM and SAE tech. papers, along with other misc. automotive hobbyist and engineering publications. Cant recall a single article recommending that you remove the sway bars to improve ride and stability. Cant recall a single article scolding those who install sway bars on vehicles, suggesting that is unnecessary, etc. Perhaps I missed something...?
2) the reason I have no idea how a 2wd EX drives, is that I love in a rural area where a 2wd anything wouldn't meet our needs. I can understand that if you live in a big city where the climate is mild, and never travel, there wouldn't be a reason to spend the extra money to buy and drag around that front drive mechanism, transfer case, etc.
One neighbor who does have a 2wd car used to make fun of me for getting 4wd vehicles. He once asked me if I ever figured out how many miles a year I drive with the 4wd engaged. His point is well-taken. Probably not over a quarter of a mile - rarely more than a few feet at a time.(not including being able to drag our 7,000 lb boat and its 3,500 lb trailer UP slippery boat ramps) but those few feet at a time when being able to get thru a mud-hole was the difference between a long walk home under hostile conditions.
He stopped making fun of me one icy, slushy night, when the EX was able to pull him SIDEWAYS out of a ditch.
Point is - the 2wd EX's may be an entirely different breed of cat from the 4wd's as to handling. I dont know what your driving, road conditions and requirements are - how much weight you tow, how much difference there is in spring rates, etc.
One thing IS clear - I am not the only one who thinks having sway bars is very important for safe operation of an EX.
Having never driven a 4WD Excursion, I can not opine on its need of an anti-roll bar but I'll take everybodies word for it that it is just about mandatory for a 4WD Excursion.
As far as removing (disabling them for the Porsche due to the advanced tech included in the Panamera) anti-roll bars to improve ride quality, Porshce appears to believe this improves ride quality as is represented by their new high-performance luxury sedan, the Panamera. As this quote shows: "Porsche's Dynamic Chassis Control (PDCC) — a system of active stabilizer bars — is designed to improve ride quality by disabling the car's antiroll bars when it's going straight, thus enabling truly independent action of the suspension. However, enter a turn and the system reengages them in milliseconds. This provides ride comfort when it's most desirable but provides significant body roll control while cornering."
Porsche's PDCC system disables the vehicles anti-roll bars to improve ride quality so apperantly disabling a vehicle's anti-roll bars just may have the potential to improve ride quality. Who knew? Lets keep in mind though that this is in no way a legitimate or valid comparison for our much less sophisticated SUVs. This is absolutely not an apples to apples comparison. Thought you would find this interesting 6686 because I sure did.
The quote can be found here.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=151046
Sit. Stay.
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From: Washington State
FWIW.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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I loved the helwig on my regularly equiped Excursion, however since the truck tows all the time I upgraded to air bags and F350 rear spwings and the Helwig no long fits as the angle changed and hits the ABS rear pumkin sensor. Sure the truck rolls a little, but its not life threating.
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[quote=aortizexcursion;7747993].......... your saying within this long-winded, lifestory of a post.........YUP...THAT'S ME..LONG WINDED...YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT....
it that it is just about mandatory for a 4WD Excursion. AGAIN, AS I NOTED, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT EFFECT DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT SPRING RATES AND FRONT SUSPENSION DESIGNS, IF ANY, EXIST ON EX PRODUCTION DOWN THRU THE YEARS. AGAIN, I CAN TELL YOU TWO THINGS:
1) I FOUND MY OWN EX TO BE DOWN-RIGHT SLOPPY EVEN WHEN EMPTY, IF DRIVEN IN ANYTHING BUT A STRAIGHT LINE.
2) UNLIKE YOU, I AM NOT AS SMART AS A ENGINEERING SCHOOL GRADUATE ON THE SUSPENSION DESIGN STAFF OF FOMOCO. SO I AM NOT IN A POSITION TO QUESTION WHY SO MANY FORD PRODUCTS DO HAVE SWAY BARS FRONT AND REAR.
3) UNLIKE YOU, I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF SMARTER THAN ALL THESE GUYS IN THE MANY 'THREADS' OF THIS FORUM, WHO ALSO STRONGLY BELIEVE IN HAVING A REAR SWAY BAR ON THE EX.
As far as removing (disabling them for the Porsche due to the advanced tech included in the Panamera) anti-roll bars to improve ride quality, Porshce appears to believe this improves ride quality when it's going straight, thus enabling truly independent action of the suspension. .........
YES - OF COURSE - A REALLY STIFF AGGRESSIVE SWAY BAR SYSTEM CERTAINLY WOULD CAUSE A ROUGHER RIDE - (IN THE CASE OF OUR EX'S I DOUBT IF IT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT- I COULDNT TELL ANY DIFFERENCE IN RIDE AFTER INSTALLING A REAR SWAY BAR ON MY EX.....)
However, enter a turn and the system reengages them in milliseconds provides significant body roll control while cornering."
THAT'S THE PROBLEM YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. READ THAT REFERENCE YOU GAVE ME AGAIN.
SOME OF US CANT LIMIT OUR DRIVING TO DRIVING EMPTY ONLY IN A STRAIGHT LINE WITHOUT CROSS-WINDS. FOR THOSE OF US WHO CANT DRIVE ONLY IN A STRAIGHT LINE, AND BOUGHT OUR EX'S FOR THEIR TOWING CAPABILITY, AND HAVE TO DRIVE WHERE THERE ARE WINDS...I REFER YOU BACK TO
1) THE MANY MANY POSTS IN THIS FORUM BY GUYS DUMBER THAN YOU BUT SMARTER THAN ME, WHO THINK A SWAY BAR IS ESSENTIAL FOR SAFE, STEADY HANDLING
2) THE QUOTE YOU JUST REFERRED ME TO, WHICH CONFIRMS THE IMPORTANCE OF A SWAY BAR IN ANY BUT THE MOST GENTLE DRIVING CONDITIONS
3) SAE / ASTM TECH PAPERS ON SUSPENSION DESIGN (oops...sorry about that...forgot you are smarter than those guys)........
it that it is just about mandatory for a 4WD Excursion. AGAIN, AS I NOTED, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT EFFECT DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT SPRING RATES AND FRONT SUSPENSION DESIGNS, IF ANY, EXIST ON EX PRODUCTION DOWN THRU THE YEARS. AGAIN, I CAN TELL YOU TWO THINGS:
1) I FOUND MY OWN EX TO BE DOWN-RIGHT SLOPPY EVEN WHEN EMPTY, IF DRIVEN IN ANYTHING BUT A STRAIGHT LINE.
2) UNLIKE YOU, I AM NOT AS SMART AS A ENGINEERING SCHOOL GRADUATE ON THE SUSPENSION DESIGN STAFF OF FOMOCO. SO I AM NOT IN A POSITION TO QUESTION WHY SO MANY FORD PRODUCTS DO HAVE SWAY BARS FRONT AND REAR.
3) UNLIKE YOU, I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF SMARTER THAN ALL THESE GUYS IN THE MANY 'THREADS' OF THIS FORUM, WHO ALSO STRONGLY BELIEVE IN HAVING A REAR SWAY BAR ON THE EX.
As far as removing (disabling them for the Porsche due to the advanced tech included in the Panamera) anti-roll bars to improve ride quality, Porshce appears to believe this improves ride quality when it's going straight, thus enabling truly independent action of the suspension. .........
YES - OF COURSE - A REALLY STIFF AGGRESSIVE SWAY BAR SYSTEM CERTAINLY WOULD CAUSE A ROUGHER RIDE - (IN THE CASE OF OUR EX'S I DOUBT IF IT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT- I COULDNT TELL ANY DIFFERENCE IN RIDE AFTER INSTALLING A REAR SWAY BAR ON MY EX.....)
However, enter a turn and the system reengages them in milliseconds provides significant body roll control while cornering."
THAT'S THE PROBLEM YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. READ THAT REFERENCE YOU GAVE ME AGAIN.
SOME OF US CANT LIMIT OUR DRIVING TO DRIVING EMPTY ONLY IN A STRAIGHT LINE WITHOUT CROSS-WINDS. FOR THOSE OF US WHO CANT DRIVE ONLY IN A STRAIGHT LINE, AND BOUGHT OUR EX'S FOR THEIR TOWING CAPABILITY, AND HAVE TO DRIVE WHERE THERE ARE WINDS...I REFER YOU BACK TO
1) THE MANY MANY POSTS IN THIS FORUM BY GUYS DUMBER THAN YOU BUT SMARTER THAN ME, WHO THINK A SWAY BAR IS ESSENTIAL FOR SAFE, STEADY HANDLING
2) THE QUOTE YOU JUST REFERRED ME TO, WHICH CONFIRMS THE IMPORTANCE OF A SWAY BAR IN ANY BUT THE MOST GENTLE DRIVING CONDITIONS
3) SAE / ASTM TECH PAPERS ON SUSPENSION DESIGN (oops...sorry about that...forgot you are smarter than those guys)........
Elder User
Joined: Dec 2006
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But here's the problem...as noted in my above post, sometimes people cant drive in a straight line on good roads lightly loaded. Those people need sway bars. That is why on these new "whizz bang" jobs the sway bar is immediately brought back into play as soon as the driving condition changes from slow straight and level
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,440
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AGAIN, AS I NOTED, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT EFFECT DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT SPRING RATES AND FRONT SUSPENSION DESIGNS, IF ANY, EXIST ON EX PRODUCTION DOWN THRU THE YEARS. AGAIN, I CAN TELL YOU TWO THINGS:
1) I FOUND MY OWN EX TO BE DOWN-RIGHT SLOPPY EVEN WHEN EMPTY, IF DRIVEN IN ANYTHING BUT A STRAIGHT LINE.
1) I FOUND MY OWN EX TO BE DOWN-RIGHT SLOPPY EVEN WHEN EMPTY, IF DRIVEN IN ANYTHING BUT A STRAIGHT LINE.
If I ever happen to own a 4WD Excursion, I'll take everybodies advice and immediately install a rear anti-roll bar on it.
As far as removing (disabling them for the Porsche due to the advanced tech included in the Panamera) anti-roll bars to improve ride quality, Porshce appears to believe this improves ride quality when it's going straight, thus enabling truly independent action of the suspension. .........
YES - OF COURSE - A REALLY STIFF AGGRESSIVE SWAY BAR SYSTEM CERTAINLY WOULD CAUSE A ROUGHER RIDE - (IN THE CASE OF OUR EX'S I DOUBT IF IT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT- I COULDNT TELL ANY DIFFERENCE IN RIDE AFTER INSTALLING A REAR SWAY BAR ON MY EX.....)
However, enter a turn and the system reengages them in milliseconds provides significant body roll control while cornering."
THAT'S THE PROBLEM YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. READ THAT REFERENCE YOU GAVE ME AGAIN.
YES - OF COURSE - A REALLY STIFF AGGRESSIVE SWAY BAR SYSTEM CERTAINLY WOULD CAUSE A ROUGHER RIDE - (IN THE CASE OF OUR EX'S I DOUBT IF IT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT- I COULDNT TELL ANY DIFFERENCE IN RIDE AFTER INSTALLING A REAR SWAY BAR ON MY EX.....)
However, enter a turn and the system reengages them in milliseconds provides significant body roll control while cornering."
THAT'S THE PROBLEM YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. READ THAT REFERENCE YOU GAVE ME AGAIN.
You said that you had never heard of a case where rendering the anti-roll bars useless improved ride quality so I enlightened you with what I had read about the Panamera.
X-Stang, I regret that your thread has been taken down this path, so I'll add 6686 to my ignore list so I cannot take this thread any further off track.
New User
Joined: Jul 2009
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I removed the front sway bar from the front so I could go over bigger rocks and trees on the trail. It is the same driving it as before. Sway bars are for people who can't drive well. Its like a crutch. You don't really need them unless your in a sports car.
If you have too many you can actually make your truck flip over because it will be too stiff.
If you have too many you can actually make your truck flip over because it will be too stiff.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 11,314
Likes: 4
WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amazing comments in this thread, simply amazing.....
Must be trickle down Obama-nomics
I guess I made a silly assumption that
we weren't talking about EVERY hypothetical condition in the world but
more specifically the conditions 99% of our trucks will be in 99% of the time ?
MOST of your use will be daily driving around town..... yes some use it for work....
but not exclusively... some use it 4 wheeling, but not exclusively...
(get a jeep if you want to do it well) don't take the wrong tool to do the job
A sway bar DOES what it is called that's all !!! Sometimes caled an ANTI-ROLL bar..
It's a mean of tying the two SIDES together
(really similar to what a load equalizing hitch does to tie the front and back together)
Anti-sway bars are a means to control sway, PERIOD - no more hypothetical engineering space walk stuff
If your vehicle has a tendency to sway OR
is tall and top heavy OR
tends to dip one side more than the other when driving down a road
AND
you want to correct that,
and be able to corner without sensing that you might 'high-side' it from too much lean,
get a sway bar.
without one you will need to slow down around corners more than a similar vehicle WITH a sway bar...
if not - then DON'T get one-
it's your truck and no matter how much simple science there is, you can't convince people if they don't want to be convinced
(oh, I forgot "Yes we can!!!!" )
So a sway bar is Eco-friendly -
you can carry more speed around a corner and therefore don't have to accelerate as much to get back up to speed !
Have fun with another unbelievable trip into the ether
Amazing comments in this thread, simply amazing.....
Must be trickle down Obama-nomics
I guess I made a silly assumption that
we weren't talking about EVERY hypothetical condition in the world but
more specifically the conditions 99% of our trucks will be in 99% of the time ?
MOST of your use will be daily driving around town..... yes some use it for work....
but not exclusively... some use it 4 wheeling, but not exclusively...
(get a jeep if you want to do it well) don't take the wrong tool to do the job
A sway bar DOES what it is called that's all !!! Sometimes caled an ANTI-ROLL bar..
It's a mean of tying the two SIDES together
(really similar to what a load equalizing hitch does to tie the front and back together)
Anti-sway bars are a means to control sway, PERIOD - no more hypothetical engineering space walk stuff
If your vehicle has a tendency to sway OR
is tall and top heavy OR
tends to dip one side more than the other when driving down a road
AND
you want to correct that,
and be able to corner without sensing that you might 'high-side' it from too much lean,
get a sway bar.
without one you will need to slow down around corners more than a similar vehicle WITH a sway bar...
if not - then DON'T get one-
it's your truck and no matter how much simple science there is, you can't convince people if they don't want to be convinced
(oh, I forgot "Yes we can!!!!" )
So a sway bar is Eco-friendly -
you can carry more speed around a corner and therefore don't have to accelerate as much to get back up to speed !
Have fun with another unbelievable trip into the ether
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 11,314
Likes: 4
u guys do know my typing test is all in fun... with just a bit of education and experience behind it...
I amd my bud both put sway bars on our 02 2wd Ex's way back when...
He even lowered his !!! Said it was because of his 3 little girls
I said "RIGHT!!!!" as I looked in his 4 car garage with 2 sports cars in there
I amd my bud both put sway bars on our 02 2wd Ex's way back when...
He even lowered his !!! Said it was because of his 3 little girls
I said "RIGHT!!!!" as I looked in his 4 car garage with 2 sports cars in there