Gas vs PSD
#766
08-02-2009, 05:41 PM
#767
08-02-2009, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by 2001400ex
Dude, you do not pull 12,500 with a 5.4 at 80 mph. My 6.0 Chevy gas engine could do that, but get 4 mpg. And PSD tears a 5.4 up any day of the week, even if 2 injectors were blown!!!!
If two injectors were bad, you'd be down 25% of your power, under ideal conditions. Meaning you'd be stuck with 225 HP and a badly running truck that would not hold a candle to a 5.4.
Furthermore, frontal area and wind resistance are far more important than weight. No reason he couldn't hit 80 with it, although I'd NEVER go that fast with a trailer.
Originally Posted by mustang6147
I run right with the 6.0 PSD but the older 7.3 liters, of 1997 have more power then myself. Mostly on hills or hard long pulls.
Originally Posted by mustang6147
The 7.3 is the engine to have though... 1997 to pre 2002
Reliability is a different story, however...
#768
08-02-2009, 05:57 PM
The same model year as your 6.4.
Oh, and van tires are smaller than yours
#769
08-02-2009, 05:58 PM
As for the 80 mph it was late, and a rae moment for me. I ussually drove around 70, and leave enough time for a sandwich, or not and arrive even earlier.
I was runnin with guys, It was cool out. I was in the ZONE! My car was perfect, condition gonna be cool. and all of a sudden "Gypsy Rose" came on the stereo. HELL YA
I was runnin with guys, It was cool out. I was in the ZONE! My car was perfect, condition gonna be cool. and all of a sudden "Gypsy Rose" came on the stereo. HELL YA
#770
08-02-2009, 06:05 PM
Elder User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And this has to be one of the most immature posts I've seen in awhile.
If two injectors were bad, you'd be down 25% of your power, under ideal conditions. Meaning you'd be stuck with 225 HP and a badly running truck that would not hold a candle to a 5.4.
Furthermore, frontal area and wind resistance are far more important than weight. No reason he couldn't hit 80 with it, although I'd NEVER go that fast with a trailer.
You do realize that the 6.0 is much more powerful than the 7.3, right? The 7.3 only had 235 HP and 500 lb-ft, and the 6.0 has 325 HP and 570 lb-ft. Tuned may be different, but stock the 7.3 can't come close to the 6.0.
Reliability is a different story, however...
If two injectors were bad, you'd be down 25% of your power, under ideal conditions. Meaning you'd be stuck with 225 HP and a badly running truck that would not hold a candle to a 5.4.
Furthermore, frontal area and wind resistance are far more important than weight. No reason he couldn't hit 80 with it, although I'd NEVER go that fast with a trailer.
You do realize that the 6.0 is much more powerful than the 7.3, right? The 7.3 only had 235 HP and 500 lb-ft, and the 6.0 has 325 HP and 570 lb-ft. Tuned may be different, but stock the 7.3 can't come close to the 6.0.
Reliability is a different story, however...
But there is a contingent of people that say a 7.3 can pull at 6.0 all other things equal. From what I have seen on the few 7.3s and the couple 6.0s, the 6.0 pulls harder, especially stock.
#771
08-02-2009, 06:07 PM
Elder User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, my 400ex is fun, but I like my Raptor 700 better!!! And my raptor will outpull your 5.4 any day of the week!!!!!! 
#772
08-02-2009, 06:16 PM
Okay, Bill, I have time to figure this out now.
My 265/70/17 tires are 31.7" tall, which makes for a circumference of 8.29 feet. At 70 MPH they would be turning 743 RPMs.
4th gear on my TorqShift is direct drive, 1.00:1 ratio, which leaves the only gear reduction present at this gear would be my 3.73:1 rear end. Meaning the engine would be turning 2,771 RPMs at this speed and gear. Assuming 625 lb-ft at that RPM, would leave:
625 x 3.73 = 2331 lb-ft applied to the wheels. Adjust that for the 15.85" radius wheels, you'd have 1765 lbs of force pulling the truck and trailer up the hill.
Also, 625 lb-ft @2771 RPMs would equal 330 HP.
Now we do yours. For the sake of simplicity, I'm gonna use the same tire size for your van. Also, because I can't get specs as far back as 1999 on FTE, I'm gonna use the 2000 PI-head V10 for HP and torque specs.
So, 743 RPMs at 70 mph. With your 1.55 2nd gear and 3.73 rear end, that would put you at 4294 RPMs at 70 MPH. Which is just perfect for your engine, as your peak HP is supposed to be at 4250 RPMs. Also makes it easy to calculate torque.
305 HP @ 4250
HP = (TQ x RPM)/5252
Therefore, at that RPM you're making 377 lb-ft of torque. Remember that this is revving well past your torque peak, so this WILL be less than peak torque...but it's still pulling harder 'cuz of RPMs.
So, 377 lb-ft x 1.55 x 3.73 = 2180 lb-ft at the wheels.
Adjust that for tire diameter and you have 1651 lbs of force pushing the van and trailer up the hill.
In summary:
(disclaimer:All values here are ignoring driveline loss, which we can assume is reasonably close between transmissions, therefore they wouldn't change the outcome here. Also, I did A LOT of math on the side here not mentioned in this thread, as it would take lots more room.)
1765 lbs trumps 1651 lbs. Every time. This is because, regardless of gearing, I am pushing 330 HP at that RPM to your 305(IF you had a 2000 MY!).
See?
My 265/70/17 tires are 31.7" tall, which makes for a circumference of 8.29 feet. At 70 MPH they would be turning 743 RPMs.
4th gear on my TorqShift is direct drive, 1.00:1 ratio, which leaves the only gear reduction present at this gear would be my 3.73:1 rear end. Meaning the engine would be turning 2,771 RPMs at this speed and gear. Assuming 625 lb-ft at that RPM, would leave:
625 x 3.73 = 2331 lb-ft applied to the wheels. Adjust that for the 15.85" radius wheels, you'd have 1765 lbs of force pulling the truck and trailer up the hill.
Also, 625 lb-ft @2771 RPMs would equal 330 HP.
Now we do yours. For the sake of simplicity, I'm gonna use the same tire size for your van. Also, because I can't get specs as far back as 1999 on FTE, I'm gonna use the 2000 PI-head V10 for HP and torque specs.
So, 743 RPMs at 70 mph. With your 1.55 2nd gear and 3.73 rear end, that would put you at 4294 RPMs at 70 MPH. Which is just perfect for your engine, as your peak HP is supposed to be at 4250 RPMs. Also makes it easy to calculate torque.
305 HP @ 4250
HP = (TQ x RPM)/5252
Therefore, at that RPM you're making 377 lb-ft of torque. Remember that this is revving well past your torque peak, so this WILL be less than peak torque...but it's still pulling harder 'cuz of RPMs.
So, 377 lb-ft x 1.55 x 3.73 = 2180 lb-ft at the wheels.
Adjust that for tire diameter and you have 1651 lbs of force pushing the van and trailer up the hill.
In summary:
(disclaimer:All values here are ignoring driveline loss, which we can assume is reasonably close between transmissions, therefore they wouldn't change the outcome here. Also, I did A LOT of math on the side here not mentioned in this thread, as it would take lots more room.)
1765 lbs trumps 1651 lbs. Every time. This is because, regardless of gearing, I am pushing 330 HP at that RPM to your 305(IF you had a 2000 MY!).
See?
I may not get to out run you, but I am pretty close!
If I had a newer V10.....
#773
08-02-2009, 06:18 PM
okay, number 1) lets do some math, I get about 17 unloaded and 10 with my toy hauler, both hand calculated. The v10 I have been around would get 12 unloaded and about 7 with my toy hauler from what I understand. So on 15,000 miles a year, say 7,500 loaded and 7,500 unloaded, yesterday diesel was at 2.51 and premium was 3.00. Cheap stuff was 2.81.
So, diesel would cost $2,990, cheap gas would be $4,767, and premium would be $5,089. At about $2,000 per year, 3.5 years the diesel would be paid off, if both were bought new, assuming $7,000 premium. When used, the premium is closer to $3,000, so the payoff is about 1.5 years. This is not taking into account additional time when you have to fuel up more often if driving for commercial purposes.
So, diesel would cost $2,990, cheap gas would be $4,767, and premium would be $5,089. At about $2,000 per year, 3.5 years the diesel would be paid off, if both were bought new, assuming $7,000 premium. When used, the premium is closer to $3,000, so the payoff is about 1.5 years. This is not taking into account additional time when you have to fuel up more often if driving for commercial purposes.
6) This is a Ford/International issue and with the 6.0 they created a great engine with a great SOP feel, but it requires some real particular maintenance. The 6.4 needs to be programmed to see how great the engine is, the particulate matter burner is junk and kills the mpg.
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
#774
08-02-2009, 06:32 PM
#775
08-02-2009, 06:35 PM
#776
08-02-2009, 06:37 PM
Elder User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was NOT referring to overall costs, just the up front 20% increase in the cost of the vehicle. You also didn't throw in the maint. costs - 15 quarts oil VS 7, cost of filters, etc.
Extra expense, see #1.
Short trips don't bother a gasser, .....although I do let it warm thoroughly in the winter. (Oh yeah, I don't need diesel clean or anti -gel either).
Mute only if you can't smell! This is BS- I've been around enough of them to assure you they do smell, some worse than others. Some like the smell, some don't, and some people are allergic to it.
Fairly quiet is not real quiet, like the V10, and I have ridden in both a F250 w/7.3, and V10.....the V10 is no noisier on the road than the 7.3.
This is not only a Ford problem, but a problem for whoever owns one.
NOT!
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
Extra expense, see #1.
Short trips don't bother a gasser, .....although I do let it warm thoroughly in the winter. (Oh yeah, I don't need diesel clean or anti -gel either).
Mute only if you can't smell! This is BS- I've been around enough of them to assure you they do smell, some worse than others. Some like the smell, some don't, and some people are allergic to it.
Fairly quiet is not real quiet, like the V10, and I have ridden in both a F250 w/7.3, and V10.....the V10 is no noisier on the road than the 7.3.
This is not only a Ford problem, but a problem for whoever owns one.
NOT!
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
1) Okay, sure oil changes are more expensive, but you need one every 7,500 miles on a diesel, while 3,000 on the V10. So, 2 oil changes a year to 5, does not negate all the costs, but sure does help. I would call that immaterial. Add to it the fuel filter that needs to be changed once a year on the 6.0 and there is additional costs, but still immaterial. We are talking about $100 a year at the most.
2) yes, but I would get a warranty on either, and the V10 warrantly isn't much cheaper, if at all.
3) With the new winter blend diesels, you don't need additives anymore, though with the 6.0 some swear by them. So no gelling issues anymore unless it is like 20 below. But that is why there are this little $50 plug thingies, which you should plug in a gasser at 20 below also.
4) Yes there are some that are bad, but that is usually from deleted exhaust/CAT and a programmer. Stock, the 6.0 does not smell one bit, same for the 6.4. I have never been around a stock 7.3, just modified ones, and yes my buddy's basically killed a tree in my front yard from his smoke. haha
5) Ride in a 6.0, when pulling big load up a hill, it is still relatively quiet inside, while the V10 is at 4,000 rpms and busting its *****. My buddy's souped up 6.0s and 7.3 can pull hard at 2,400 RPMs, seems like it is barely working. My stock 6.0 is another matter, but still failry quiet.
6) and yes that is why I am in the process of buying a warranty, they messed up with the 6.0, but when fixed, it runs awesome and is fun to drive.
#778
08-02-2009, 06:43 PM
On the second part, I completely agree. There's no way an engine with a 90 HP and 75 lb-ft torque deficit can outpull the 6.0. Not if the 6.0's running right.
Originally Posted by Krewat
Now, go figure it out for a 2008 V10 putting out 362HP @ 4750
The same model year as your 6.4.
Oh, and van tires are smaller than yours
The same model year as your 6.4.
Oh, and van tires are smaller than yours
This is why I like the V10 so much... As I've said before, if I could have gotten the same deal on the same truck, but with a V10 instead of a PSD I would have. That $6K difference would have bought me a lot of gas...
Not that I have any regrets about it, the PSD is a fine engine. But the V10 is also a great choice, in my opinion.
Originally Posted by bill11012
Ok, that math sounds right.
I may not get to out run you, but I am pretty close!
If I had a newer V10.....
I may not get to out run you, but I am pretty close!
If I had a newer V10.....
#779
08-02-2009, 06:43 PM
Elder User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote=bill11012;7787844]
cough cough B choke choke S cough cough
Oh wait, 100 kilometers per hour, I get it.
Do you have a programmer?
Oh wait, 100 kilometers per hour, I get it.
Do you have a programmer?
#780
08-02-2009, 06:46 PM