So keeping brakes cool is not benificial?

 

and thats just not accurate... as per the link below powerstop rotors are machined in Chicago...

Power Stop

Why is it you seem to have such an agenda against cross drilled rotors.... and I asked last night....where did you get the numbers you quoted above?

 

Cross drill/slotting only reduces temps very slightly in street conditions and primary purpose is to vent/reduce gas buildup that is produced during sustained high heat operations. When we talk susstained high heat were referring to temps above 800 degrees which street vehicles just don't typically see. The brake linings are the primary determining factor of how much heat is generated and dissipated- linings that do not dissipate heat cause caliper seal destruction and transfer greater heat onto the rotor of which the rotor vanes are suppose to dissipate.

 

Yes machined but not manufactured- they are made in china and cross drill/slotted in chicago. They do not employ brake lining specific engineers. Like I said, call Wellman, Diversified Cryogenics or Carbo- they will verify everything I have stated.

No agenda with crossdrilled/slotted rotors- only objection is false advertising and people wasting $ as a result of creative marketing and shiney anodizing- unless that is what you want, then that's fine.

 

Slotted rotors i'll agree are useless in street use....however cross drilled rotors do run signifigantly cooler....theres data all over the web on them...and if brakes don't run too hot on our trucks...then why are alot of people experiencing rotor warp?????

I should call a competitor company to get the data on one??? that makes sense ..... powerstop rotors cost about the same as any other good rotor.....and i don't think you'll find anyone who's ever bought that brand of them and not thought they were a great investment.....

 

Just curious if anyone has used Baer OEM replacement rotors.

 

As moderator you need to read my post..then respond appropriately and stop promoting garbage marketing by the forums advertisers- or even better, attend a trade show where you can actually speak to the vendors for powerslot, bendix, etc who design and build their products- not just drill holes and make a couple of grooves in rotors and sell them under your name- heck, you could even do that out of your own garage- I'll even give you the cut patterns!.

 

I'm not promoting any marketing garbage....i'm promoting the product that i've used for over 10 years on multiple vehicles.....

Again, cross drilled rotors on vettes, porches, streetbikes, and supercars....all to keep brakes cool....... Our trucks run too hot on the brakes .....so why can't crossdrilled rotors help here too????

Explain why most people that have tried cross drilled rotors found they improve braking quite a bit???

 

Ok...
1. OEM brake systems (calipers/rotors/pads) are designed to have a max operating temp of ambient to around 900 F (this can slightly vary but for our purposes it's close enough). At temps above 1100, the caliper components begin to break down, linings are failing. Most typical operating range for street vehicles is up to around 600 degrees f.

2. Racing linings (in general) operational temps begin at around 400-600 degrees f up to 1800 f (again, give or take a little).


With cross drilled rotors on vettes, porches, streetbikes, and supercars they are equipped with brake systems to function in "racing environments"- as we all know, you can take any of the listed vehicles directly off the showroom floor to the track and run them- why, because as we all know, that type of performance is what the drivers expect and may even use it for. In racing you can only limit the rapid build up of heat so much, so the design is to exhaust the organic/inorganic gasses out during braking (created as a result of the friction) and then dissipate the heat as quickly as possible. The temps experienced are not even in the same ballpark as a street vehicle in comparison.

In street-use vehicles, like our trucks, there are a number of issues...

1. The OEM brake lining- while of good quality, we know they are a compromise between friction, dust production, wear and quietness. as a result, they do not dissipate heat as well as aftermarket linings such as Hawk (Wellman material) so that temp is transferred to the rotors. When we stop the vehicles (at a stoplight), we now have two contact patches on the rotors that are very hot, transferring heat not equally around, but to about 20% or the rotor. Eventually, these "hot spots" as I will call them, are one of the primary reasons the rotors warp- too much heat generated, not dissipated and transferred to "one spot" on the rotor for a short period of time. Then after a minute, we drive the vehicle, activating the rotary cooling vanes inside the rotor- now we have unequal heat and cooling. This is a diffent heat transfer issue than what racing conditions create- while they may pit a car for 15-30 seconds, the vehicles are constantly moving so the rotary vanes can do their job of transferring the heat away from the rotors. Additionally, because the brake linings are generating and retaining soooooo much of the heat, for those that tow heavy and are facing high demand uses (like hills), you can easily hit the max operating temp on the linings during operation, and the rotors, well, see my comments on rotors below.

"Explain why most people that have tried cross drilled rotors found they improve braking quite a bit"

two reasons.....

1. Most people purchase upgraded aftermarket linings- whether they are ceramics or higher friction materials, these linings (as you know) have higher friction (greater friction co-efficient- with the exception of ceramics), with less heat generated (when comparing apples to apples)- additionally, because of the lining design, they dissipate heat at a much faster rate so when we come to a stop, there is much less heat transfer onto the rotor. If you take these linings and install them on a set of oem rotors, with the exception noted below, there warp rotor problems will be gone in most cases.

2. Rotor quality. The Chinese foundaries have 4 grades of rotors- in the US, when companies repackage these they will use terms such as "economy", "good", "best" and "premium". If we take a look for example at Toyota a few years ago, their trucks were warping rotors like there was no tomorrow- why, they were purchasing C-grade ("good") units. Right now, Ford & GM are purchasing B-grade ("best") units for the common applications. When you purchase aftermarket "performance" type rotors from Powerslot, Hawk, Diversified Crygenics, they purchase the A-grade (premium) rotors- so right off the bat, you have a better (rotor) quality product with a much lower composite (alloy) content- which has a greater resistance to temp changes. Now this comes with a price as well, because even the A/premium grade rotors have flaws in them ranging from casting issues, machining issues, etc. right from the foundary- which these aftermarkets distributors check each rotor and dispose of the ones that aren't up to spec. So there is an additional quality control measure that is good insurance.

In summary, are they running cooler- sure, but not (in street applications) because of the crossdrill/slotting- it is the combination of material quality and lining design.

The reason I suggested you speak with the guys at Carbo or (especially)Wellman is they actually manufacture brake lining material, while Carbo does sell rotors it is not their primary business and Wellman does not sell rotors to the best of my knowledge nor sell their linings to the public- they sell only to guys like Hawk, race teams, etc. The guys at Carbo are also the ones who supply the brake linings to Goodyear's (tire company) test engineers at their field test centers. They are actual engineers who design and manufacture brake lining and I'm sure will convey similar opinions- neither of which are competitors with Powerslot and would provide a very independant 3rd party opinion.

If one was to take a car with 4-wheel brakes and install the same aftermarket high quality (street use type) linings and rotors on all 4 corners with one side being equipped with crossdrilled/slotted units and the other side without the crossdrill/slotted machining - all cryogenically treated (which would maximize the hardness and eliminate any metalurgic variations in the rotors), you would find braking on each side of the vehicle would be the same. The only time that you would see any difference is if you had repeated heavy (panic stop) braking, brining the operational temps up to their max whereby organic/inorganic gasses would begin generation, then the crossdrill/slotted units would begin to show a increase of braking efficiency but only after consequtively, repeated braking applications- a scenario that most street use vehicles would never experience.

 

Just FYI, but "lifetime" brake pads are not for wear, but just failure...I/e if they wear out, you still have to buy new ones, you won't get a replacemnet set for free.

If they come apart/etc, then you get new ones for free.

And yes...funny, I also had to drill out one of the holes on my AZ pads too.

Maybe bad tooling?

 

For not working at a brake company you have an awful lot of numbers with no supporting research.....


And fine....say what ever you want....i'm standing by the personal experience that I'VE had....and still recomending them to anyone who needs new brakes.....

And for the record....GM buys rotors from Waupaca Foundry in Waupaca Wisconsin..........so where is your china rotors coming from?

 

1. How do you know that I do not, nor have any involvement with a brake company- that is a slanderous and personal attack- I hope the moderators are watching.

2. The last time I posted a doc on this web site to support a position I was accused of falsifying a Ford OEM document- never again. I will only provide the location of the info and industry contacts.- BTW, the info I spoke of is "common knowledge" amoung the professional community- you have obviously never attended SEMA or the SBMA and spoke directly to the lining mfg's.

3. With regards to GM- I never listed them in any discussion and my specifics did include 90% of the aftermarket (such as powerslot, bendix) purchase the rotors from China.

4. You are clearly part of the ricer/smart *** I know better generation who has no respect for engageing in a thoughfull, respectfull conversation and since you have little to no engineering background choose to falsify my statements, that are trackable, tracable and verifyable- you are a very little person without ethics and filled with decite.

 

1. You said you didn't

2. Provide proof that is legitimate....even a link to any of these numbers

3. I thought you said nothing about GM???

4. I've never owned a "ricer" only ford trucks and lincoln cars....( i did own two yamaha street bikes).....I've through out this thread said i've had personal exprience on numerous vehicles, posted links to others who have had good experiences......

And....for the record....the three years i spent in my engineering program at the University of Wisconsin give me a good deal of understanding of engineering

 

Let's see...

I listed all the phone numbers and links for Carbo & Diversified cryogenics in the original e-mail

With regards to the temp, those are all posted on carbo's web site for each type of lining and if you had completed the the curriculum beyond the core courses you would know that the oem brake lining operating temps are "Common Knowledge"- I won't even get into the subject of braking co-efficients with you at this point given your mis-representation and lack of understanding of SAE standards.

 

You guys are great. I was going to do my brakes when I got home. Now I know what to buy and what to expect. With this and the spark plugs the truck ought to run pretty good and be ready for the intake and exhuast upgrades next.