origcharger:

75% of Caterpillar sales now come from NON domestic sales. Overseas. Foreign countries. Other than USA. Do you think for one minute that Cat will cut another company in their most profitable business?

Lest you forget. Navistar and Ford were in the same exclusive agreements for how many years? I will just say, more than 10, but it is much more than that.

I always think of Navistar when I think of fishing. They keep the barb on the hook! Oh, and I never saw a grade 8 hook!

Final observation. Not I, but to come from Peoria, ILL with yellow blood in veins, you learn to make something in the dirt, not on concrete or tarmac.

P. S. Let me say, please no argumentum ad homenum. I am only trying to explain one position, as you take on the opposite side.

 

rmosso1, I sense I have irritated you, not my intention.

Its safe to say that with the new emission standards and how they are integrated into the truck the days of stand alone on highway engine manufacturers are about over. You either own, become owned, align yourself with a truck builder or get out of the on highway business.
Time will tell if its yellow or black under the hood.

 

origcharger:

No, I feel the same. It was not my intention to aggreviate you. I only want to learn more about what is to happen. Sometimes guys get PO'd when they feel they have not won. My intentions are not to win, as there are no winners. Only by kowing what can happen can we, as consumers, make the decision. I said I would never buy a 6.4 until this forum.

Similarly, it would behoove me to buy a UREA diesel engine. Reminds me of my pre LAMBRETTA days, when I had a CUSHMANN and had to throw mother's earth to the clutch, but that got me to HER house! She lived on a hill...

 

Cat is done with OTR engines. The plant is shutting down. They are not even able to meet tier III emissions for off road. They are paying a fine to the EPA for every engine leaving the plant. They are hopeful to skip III and go right to IV since it is coming right up. Cat and Navistar are actually leaning to using MANN's emission technology for thier venture, as MANN has been quite far ahead in Europe with emissions. This info is not from an article, it is from inside the organization. The MANN thing is not set in stone, but CAT getting out of the OTR is done, for now anyway.

 

Cat lobbied hard to sell their better mouse trap called ACERT when everyone else was turning to EGR. For the most part, it flopped. Look where it got them. Now Navistar is doing the same lobbying. Until a better technology is developed, we are stuck with what we have and a majority can't be wrong in picking SCR.

 

In a nutshell, this is old information and propaganda.

Urea will add less than a 1/2 cent per mile to the operating cost of the vehicle whereas it will increase the fuel economy by 3-5% net.

Europe didn't have an infrastructure either, but they do now.

Scania said they will be using massive EGR, which was co-developed with Cummins. Cummins WAS going to use it also, but saw the light and abandoned the idea. MAN also will use massive EGR which is why Intl. is saying their system is better. EuroV emissions is no where near as strict as US10. EuroVI gets close but not quite.

OBDII will take care of urea addition. If you want your engine to run, you will keep you tank full.

If you want to learn more, try this site: www.factsaboutscr.com

 

Here a link to more information: Facts About SCR

 

Ah yes, now we even have CAT coming back into the picture, no the movie! Here is what I see as of this time and date. Two technologies to meet 2010 emissions compliance. One is EGR, which we have in our 6.4's, and the second, SCR which is urea. The ACERT, is CAT proprietary, and probably does not do the job.

Two comments: First, much like BETA and VCR, one will win. Second, I can understand how urea works, as it is simply sprayed, poured or dribbled into the muffler as a water mix. WHAT happens when the urea mix freezes.

"old information and propaganda" is, to me, still more believable than UREA. Think of it this way. In the south, east and north USA, how many fuel pumps dispense more than 15 ppm diesel fuel. And you expect them to add "urea filling stations" at fuel stops in the next 12 months? Don't hold your breath, we would miss you at FTE.

Rob, the links you refer to are also self serving, are they not?

 

Point/counter point, here is a link to Internationals presentation on their 2010 emission strategy;

MaxxForce? ? Emissions : Learning Center - MaxxForce



Who's "koolaid" do we drink

 

origcharger:

Great site! But, also, VERY, VERY, VERY self serving--International. HOWEVER, after three days of reading, my opinion would be that I choose door A, which is the EGR system if I were to buy a 2011 truck. But, a problem exists. Navistar doesn't make a FORD F-350, and I will not buy any International truck, and FORD only has the SCR technology.

So, to answer your question, I choose "Sutter Home White Zinfindel" as I never did like KOOLAID.

P. S. I always liked my V-10 in my 2001 EXCURSION--please no rocks, the industry will hear our thoughts.

 

I am one who is on the other side of the fence and is actually looking forward to the SCR technology with hopes that it will help tremedously with the ongoing issues related to emissions regulated diesels. Using EGR as the sole means of meeting emissions has been nothing more then a ongoing failure in my opinion. All the manufacturers have tried thier best to meet the demands of the EPA and the consumer, but we still deal with stuck EGR valves, clogged EGR coolers, poor fuel economy and power robbing performance. The reality is diesels like to run hot and dirty for optimal performance and fuel economy, but that does not work for emissions. At this time SCR is the only option that will allow for reduced EGR flow and increased combustion temperatures which should ulitmately lead to a reduction in EGR related problems and a increase in performance and economy...

I agree that the availability of DEF (urea) is looking a bit scary at this point and it probably will be a while before you actually see DEF pumps at your local filling station, but it should not be much of a issue to distribute DEF in a prepackaged form. Early on it will probably be easiest to buy from your local dealer, but it should not take too long before your avererage filling station that has a diesel pump realizes the need to carry it. As the demand increases so will the supply...

DEF does have a freeze point issue, but the EPA has been so kind to allow manufacturers a period of non-compliance while the DEF thaws which will be done via on vehicle heating...

It is definately going to be interesting to see how all this plays out...

 

rmosso1:
My strategy is to position myself so I don't have to be anyones first year test pilot. We are just going to get our first 2007 emission bus this July even though we have bought a new bus each year since 2003.

 

The question is will it be a reduced EGR flow from which emission year standard; 2004, 2007? Or is it just less EGR than a 2010 EGR solution?

I agree its going to be interesting.

 

PowerStrokeHD:
You have to agree that even with the SCR technology, you still must use EGR technology in the exhaust.
origcharger:
I agree completely. I was planning on a 2011, but not now.

Point: When I had my venturi installed and the regen flash, I was talking to someone in the know, in the garage. This very large trucking company/lessor/etc. has a deal with Ford for the life of the truck or ten years, which ever comes first, with the 6.0. I do not know about the 6.4.

 

That is a good question and one that I do not have the answer for. Maybe rob_nc will be able to shed some more light on it as I believe he has some involvement in the testing of SCR.

Myself I would tend to believe that the amount of flow would become less of a factor as far as the effects it takes on the EGR system its self as the combustion process is improved, but that does not take in account for what effect it would have on fuel economy and power. Fortunately SCR will be the primary and EGR will be the secondary, so we can only hope that the flow is reduced significantly...

No arguments from me, but as I said above SCR is the system that will take center stage and the EGR will be the one to supplement. Granted, that is scary in its own right as there is little doubt that the EPA will continue to make emissions regulations more strict and that could ultimately lead us back to 2004 where EGR flow will once again have to be increased and combustion temperatures will have to be reduced to meet emissions even with SCR. It is a vicious cycle...