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6.7L Power Stroke Diesel 2011-current Ford Powerstroke 6.7 L turbo diesel engine
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International V.S. Ford Built Diesels

 
  #46  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:16 PM
Big Bad
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Originally Posted by Lead Head View Post
What compromises does Navistar have on the 6.4? The Duramax only meets 07 emissions specs as well. The Cummins and Duramax also both have an EGR. Mercedes diesels, even the Puegot diesels use an EGR are as well.

I don't see how Common rail injection, or fast spooling sequential twin VGT turbos are bandaids?

ALL diesel engines in both Europe and the US need a DPF and NOx absorber. They use the exact same emissions technology as we do here, infact ours is slightly better. The current US diesel emissions are MORE strict then the Euro IV specs. I also expect our 2010 emissions to be stricter then the Euro V/VI as wel.

And the cummins meeting 2010 emissions comes at a price. MASSVIVE emissions system failures are happening with the 6.7. The first year and a half it iwas out, on the cummins forum it was just pages and pages of DPF and Turbo failure because of excessive soot and sustained high temperatures.
I'll put it to you like this, in 2005 the Euro Ford diesels had EVERY feature the 6.4 finally got in 2008, including gallery oil cooled pistons, piezoelectric injectors, DPF, pilot injection, common rail, and twin sequential VGTs. The difference is the execution was MUCH more elegant in the in Euro diesels, right down to the combustion chamber.

You can sit there and argue who has what features until your blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Euro diesels are realistically 5 years ahead of Navistar and Navistar is FAR from cutting edge.

Look at what Ford/Peugeot, Audi and BMW have done with their diesels, all of these companies have produced diesels that blow ANYTHING we've seen from Navistar or even Cummins out of the water. Hands down.
 
  #47  
Old 01-23-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Bad View Post
I'll put it to you like this, in 2005 the Euro Ford diesels had EVERY feature the 6.4 finally got in 2008, including gallery oil cooled pistons, piezoelectric injectors, DPF, pilot injection, common rail, and twin sequential VGTs. The difference is the execution was MUCH more elegant in the in Euro diesels, right down to the combustion chamber.

You can sit there and argue who has what features until your blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Euro diesels are realistically 5 years ahead of Navistar and Navistar is FAR from cutting edge.

Look at what Ford/Peugeot, Audi and BMW have done with their diesels, all of these companies have produced diesels that blow ANYTHING we've seen from Navistar or even Cummins out of the water. Hands down.

Your trying to compare apples to oranges. Euro Ford diesels are pass. car engines, not heavy duty diesels. There is a difference. Although they share technologies, heavy duty diesels require different fuel/timing maps and they must conform to a different set of emissions rules than pass. cars. North America was the first market to use EGR and dpf in heavy duty diesels.
 
  #48  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Bad View Post
I'll put it to you like this, in 2005 the Euro Ford diesels had EVERY feature the 6.4 finally got in 2008, including gallery oil cooled pistons, piezoelectric injectors, DPF, pilot injection, common rail, and twin sequential VGTs. The difference is the execution was MUCH more elegant in the in Euro diesels, right down to the combustion chamber.

You can sit there and argue who has what features until your blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Euro diesels are realistically 5 years ahead of Navistar and Navistar is FAR from cutting edge.

Look at what Ford/Peugeot, Audi and BMW have done with their diesels, all of these companies have produced diesels that blow ANYTHING we've seen from Navistar or even Cummins out of the water. Hands down.
International introduced pilot injection on the 7.3 with the split-shot injectors. Every international engine ever used in a ford pickup has had oil cooled pistons - including the 6.9. When international brought out the HEUI system in 1995, it was one of the most advanced injection systems around. Almost everyone else, include most European diesels were still using injection pumps! They pretty much solidified the future of common rail injection. (The HEUI IS common rail). The 6.0 had a VG turbo back in 03. Just not two of em. DPFs weren't even required here until 2007, and regen nesicates multiple injections per cycle, while the current HEUI system could only provide 2. So they had to go common rail.

Cummins has had Piezo injectors and HPCR since 03, and the Duramax since 01.

Tell me though, how are the European solutions more elegant? How is the Dmax, Cummins, and Powerstroke 5 years behind european diesels, when they are all using the exact same technology? I mean some of them are LITERALLY using the exact same technology. The Bosch CP3 injection system is used on the Cummins and Duramax, and it and its variants are also used on many European diesels.
 
  #49  
Old 01-23-2009, 10:10 PM
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And the 4.5 Powerstroke has had sequential turbos since 2004 or before.

No manufacturer was going to put DPFs on their engines and be at a competitive price disadvantage and before the necessary ULSD was available.
 
  #50  
Old 01-24-2009, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lead Head View Post
International introduced pilot injection on the 7.3 with the split-shot injectors. Every international engine ever used in a ford pickup has had oil cooled pistons - including the 6.9. When international brought out the HEUI system in 1995, it was one of the most advanced injection systems around. Almost everyone else, include most European diesels were still using injection pumps! They pretty much solidified the future of common rail injection. (The HEUI IS common rail). The 6.0 had a VG turbo back in 03. Just not two of em. DPFs weren't even required here until 2007, and regen nesicates multiple injections per cycle, while the current HEUI system could only provide 2. So they had to go common rail.

Cummins has had Piezo injectors and HPCR since 03, and the Duramax since 01.

Tell me though, how are the European solutions more elegant? How is the Dmax, Cummins, and Powerstroke 5 years behind european diesels, when they are all using the exact same technology? I mean some of them are LITERALLY using the exact same technology. The Bosch CP3 injection system is used on the Cummins and Duramax, and it and its variants are also used on many European diesels.
I've told you how it is. Take it or leave it, I could care less.
 
  #51  
Old 01-24-2009, 08:54 AM
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Subscribing...
 
  #52  
Old 01-24-2009, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Bad View Post
I've told you how it is. Take it or leave it, I could care less.

What makes you the expert?
 
  #53  
Old 01-25-2009, 02:05 AM
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ok i know i read the discussion on how ford doesn't own anything with cummins, so then can someone tell me why my parents can get a discount on all ford and all dodges because my dad works at cummins, and all the cars cummins has for out of town trips are fords, so if someone could explain that to me id be happy to hear it
 
  #54  
Old 01-25-2009, 03:54 AM
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Most big companies get deals on all makes since they usually have fleets and buy their fleets from sometimes all of them, then you get the company discount on your own personal purchase.
 
  #55  
Old 01-25-2009, 08:05 AM
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Not to mention cummins does supply the bigger F750 and up fords with engines. And maybe even the F650.
 
  #56  
Old 01-25-2009, 09:42 AM
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Ford employees also qualify for supplier discounts for Dodge, GM, Dell, YMCA, Verizon, Sprint, etc, etc. Lots of companies offer discounts to big businesses because of the expected volume of business they will receive.

Did you know that Pizza hut employees qualify for X plan? YES that is true! Ford doesnt own these companies and Ford doesnt make laptops, cell phones or pepperoni. Its just a matter of companies doing business with one another.

In the case of Cummins, Ford does buy some engines for the big trucks so that makes Cummins a supplier. In good faith, nearly all suppliers offer employee discounts as a means of supporting the company that is puting food on their tables by purchasing parts, engines, whatever.
 
  #57  
Old 01-26-2009, 08:54 AM
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I work for Sherwin Williams and I get a discount on Ford, Dodge, GM, Verizon, Sprint, plus some I might not know of, even some home Mortgage's. I even took advantage of them discounts.
 
  #58  
Old 01-26-2009, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by F6Guy View Post
Not to mention cummins does supply the bigger F750 and up fords with engines. And maybe even the F650.
There are no Fords bigger than the 750, and yes the 650 comes with a 6.7L Cummins. In fact, as of 2009 the 6.7L Cummins is the only engine offered in these trucks. The 650 and 750 are built in Mexico by International for Ford. They are basically International 4400 chassis with a Cummins engine and a Super Duty cab. A mongrel if there ever was one. As for Ford's new diesel, I am optomistic. I don't think International ever really had a good truck diesel. Every one had issues, some more than others. The old 6.9L was about the best, the 7.3L had block cavitation issues, 7.3L Powerstrokes will nickel and dime you to death, 6L, yikes! Someone will probably bring up the DT-466 family. Yeah, they are good, but they were designed by International's ag division, not the truck people.
 
  #59  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rob_nc View Post
What makes you the expert?
Knowledge...
 
  #60  
Old 01-27-2009, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Bad View Post
Knowledge...

It seems all of your knowledge is of engines less than 4L.
 

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