Hey guys, I have a 77 F250 with a tired 460 in it. I will be installing a new long block 460 in it in a few weeks. I have been reading about ditching the stock timing set for an adjustable one because of the retard inherent in the stock set. Most sets I see have -4, normal and +4, when you guys say set it at "straight up" are you referring to the normal or 0 setting on the aftermarket set? Also, if I install this set, is there other tuning required because of the change?

 

Depending on what you are going to do the cheaper option is to just get a new stock timing set from the place you are getting the long block from, but specify a 71 tbird or something with a 460 or 429 before 1972, I think I paid like $16 for mine when I did it and now they will be something in the low 20's.

If you use the aftermarket set "0" is straight up, also if it is a stock motor with stock cam or light rv cam advancing it 4* might see even more of a torque gain although you will loose a little more top end, other wise I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what a difference the timing difference in the cam will make.

 

I will be installing an Edelbrock Performer intake, hi flow thermostat and water pump, MSD ignition and didtributor and the motor will have an RV cam in it. It already has an Edelbrock carb on it that I will rebuild. I will probably get the Cloyes true roller timing set, it's only $45.00 at Summit. So setting it at 0 degrees is the way to go? I apperciate the info.

 

Zero will get you there. One thing to keep in mind if you go advancing your camshaft is you need to check your piston to valve clearances before you go ripping down the road doing burnouts. Make sure your shop tests the springs, and sets the heads up so you have proper spring pressures for the cam you are running. If you want more zoot, use the Performer RPM, or Weiand Stealth. The performer essentially is a copy of the cast iron factory manifold, minus the EGR stuff.

 

You think there will be interference issues setting the timing set at 0? I will spin the motor by hand before I install it in the truck and check it. I looked at the Weiand intake (it's actually a hair cheaper) but it does not have the EGR provision on it. If needed, can I get the EGR plate that goes under the carb to still have a functioning EGR valve?

 

There should not be any interference with the cam set at "0", just might want to check if you want to try advancing the cam past 0.

Also the Weiand Intake will not allow the EGR to work if it does not have the crossover. In order for the EGR to work there are two ports, one on each head in the middle that feed exhaust gas up to the EGR plate beside the 4 barrel holes. Another cheap mod if you are in an area that does not check for that is to block off the extra exhaust holes in the heads with some high temp epoxy, especially when using an intake with a deleted EGR valve. After all why would you want exhaust going back around if you don't have too, alls it does is heat up the intake charge and dilute the fuel charge, granted you will need to richen your carb a little but you should see better power and mileage from it.

 

Why would you need to change the carb jetting?

 

It would stand to figure that with the egr functioning that the fuel air mixture would be diluted with the exhaust, so without the exhaust gasses something has to take its place, I mean the point in deleting the egr is to increase horsepower right and power costs fuel. I don't mean the just or only the jets, although that may be the case, but like on my edel you can change the needles, springs, acc pump, etc. all kinds of things to get the fuel mixture just right to produce the most useable power the engine can potentially make.

You take out the exhaust gases and the fuel air mixture is different there is more usable oxygen to burn more fuel. And for that case the timing curve is going to need to be slightly different, you don't just change one thing without changing others as well. That's all I was trying to say.

 

Your logic is flawed. You are saying that the exhaust gas can burn again and need fuel to do that. EGR stands for "Exhaust Gas Recirculateting" and exhaust gases by definition have already been burned so are effectiveley inert in the combustion chamber. Now without the EGR, all the extra air is still coming thru the carb which has a fuel/air mixture set for the EGR. So if anything you would need to lean the mixture, not make it richer.

 

To clarify some more, turning the motor by hand check your piston to valve clearance is totally incorrect. You could be missing the top of the piston by .000001 thousandths of an inch, but when things get warm, expand, and the RPM picks up, suddenly your $100 cam has grown into a $3,000 motor. Chances are you will get away with not having issues with your new cam.... Me personally use your old head gasket, use some playdoh, plumbers putty, whatever, and get your actual clearances. Once that is done, clean up, put the new Head gasket on, and enjoy the fact you actually know what your clearances are.

If the intake manifold you purchase does not have EGR provisions already machined into it, putting on an EGR plate will not give you a functioning EGR. It might (MAYBE) fool a smog tech into thinking your system still is intact, but if he goes and tests your valve, you will fail. I would imagine that if you were to use a 83-86 Mustang plate, and drill out the passageway into the cross over port, you could add EGR provisions to a non EGR equipped manifold. If I remember correctly, the Stealth I owned had a dimple cast into the carb flange. I seen one time on ebay, a Weiand Stealth EGR manifold. I wonder if it was the same casting, minus extra machining?

 

I thought all timing sets today aftermarket did not have the retard in them .. But i used lunati set set it to zero and the cam has built in 4 deg. advance

 

I heard this too but doubt it as the EPA would wet themselves making sure it was illegal to intentionally defeat there BS emissions rules.

 

If it is a later 460 (I had a 76) you dont have anything to worry about in changing the cam gear. There is enough clearance, clarence, to do about anything you want unless maybe you are getting an earlier low deck block with flat top (custom) pistons. I dont think the 460s ever had a flat top piston from the factory, most replacements are cast with ~ 20 cc dish. If you put a CJ cam in one with big valve heads you have to feather one edge (intake) of the dish very slightly to maintain .100 These old lo-po motors arent going to turn 6K anyway to have to worry about rod stretch.

I used a pre 72 pass gear, my brother did 1 tooth on the cam gear which equates to ~ 32 deg (I forget how much). The CJ/police inteceptor 429's I believe were 32 deg adv. If you have the small valve heads, I see no need to even check (provided no big cam).

EGR dilutes the mixture for emissions. Bigger jets and no egr = too rich. EGR gasses do not reburn. Most emissions considerations work only on no-load cruise conditions and cease to function for performance.

 

I've never heard of anyone advancing a cam more tha 12° and that motor ran like crap and had to be backed off to 8°.

 

I think I have been saying cam gear-----meant to say crank gear. Thats the one with the different settings.

Guess I better clarify here a little on the specs for crank gears--.

Since I didnt degree any of them with a wheel, I can only go by what the reference to them was. Replacing the later gear with a pre-72 was a "hot tip' in most 460 tuner articles. I dont recall the part #'s , been a while. Think it was ~16 deg, the smog gear was ~8 deg. One reference from ford, maybe an SVO catalog, showed the CJ/Police intercp gear to be ~32 deg adv. By using all 21 toes and fingers, we decided that the 32 deg gear was right at 1 tooth, so we went for it on my brothers van. Without a degree wheel, or even a cam spec sheet, who knows what the actual timing was, but even if relative only to each other, it was some comparison. It helped, and did not run like "crap"