Told ya so
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,628
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From: Calgary, Canada
I dunno; windmills are cool and all but there are lots of moving parts that add to the cost over time as they wear out.
Solar steam generation with parabolic reflectors looks like it's probably one of the best solutions.
Solar steam generation with parabolic reflectors looks like it's probably one of the best solutions.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,512
Likes: 8
From: Cook Forest and Irwin PA
But this time, I will let you read this
To highlight a key point: given that wind can die down, generation capacity has to be on standby to take the load in an instant. It takes a couple *DAYS* to restart any type of generating plant. Which means the plants must be running, not producing - in other words - still burning fuel and polluting. Talk about the con job of the century. Pay attention to what happened to denmark in there.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,938
Likes: 2
From: BC Canada
Man, I owe another lunch for ANTOHER great segue....
But this time, I will let you read this
To highlight a key point: given that wind can die down, generation capacity has to be on standby to take the load in an instant. It takes a couple *DAYS* to restart any type of generating plant. Which means the plants must be running, not producing - in other words - still burning fuel and polluting. Talk about the con job of the century. Pay attention to what happened to denmark in there.
But this time, I will let you read this
To highlight a key point: given that wind can die down, generation capacity has to be on standby to take the load in an instant. It takes a couple *DAYS* to restart any type of generating plant. Which means the plants must be running, not producing - in other words - still burning fuel and polluting. Talk about the con job of the century. Pay attention to what happened to denmark in there.
We are already on the grid, and usually when the power goes out its during a storm.
The storm makes wind the perfect supplement, as wind accompanies the storm.
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,004
Likes: 1
From: North of Boston MA
ANY type? I beg to differ. There are simple cycle gas turbine power plants that can be online at full power from a cold start in 10 minutes. Meteorology has advanced enough to know that the wind is about to die down and get plants online. But, the simple cycle plants are a good way to bridge the gap until more efficient plants can come online.
I don't think anyone (at least I am not) is saying wind, solar or any other alternative power will replace conventional power plants, but man they will help.
I don't think anyone (at least I am not) is saying wind, solar or any other alternative power will replace conventional power plants, but man they will help.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 23,165
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From: Enjoying the real world.
I guess this just shows how stupid people are, people invest in energy to make a buck, but during the meanwhile, they are paying higher energy costs because the price is goin up, so even tho it looks like they made money off of energy speculation, they actually are loosing money.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,621
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From: Sweetwater Texas
True, but those are also the people who lose big (which makes me laugh inside), but I do know of some of my friends who have invested a few thousand into oil and it confused me to no end.
This is just my opinion, but I feel that anyone who speculates energy is UNAMERICAN.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,782
Likes: 15
From: Lower Mainland B.C.
Electric vehicle technology is already quite robust and more than adequate to suite the needs of the vast majority of people.
Somebody just has to grow a pair and push the technology out there and instead of trying to become a gazillionaire off of something just do it for the betterment of the people and get on path of freeing everybody from this slavery we are currently in.
Somebody just has to grow a pair and push the technology out there and instead of trying to become a gazillionaire off of something just do it for the betterment of the people and get on path of freeing everybody from this slavery we are currently in.
I do not know the figures and I am not going to google them(if they exist online at all) but the examples I have are two:
1. IBM versus Apple: IBM started licensing their product(computers) to other companies to sell BEFORE Apple Inc. ever decided to license their stuff. Back in the day the Apples were in some elementary schools while pretty much almost all businesses were using IBM because that was what was widely available and therefore used.
2. Robertson screw-head design(the square one) versus Phillips all others: a superior design when introduced and probably still to this day, Henry Ford was interested in using it in all his cars as the Canadian plants were saving $2.60 per car in time savings. The inventor would not license it to Ford or others and so the Phillips screw-head design was widely adopted with other ones hanging around to this day. (this was out of an essay called "One Good Turn" by Witold Rybcyznski. yes his real name, that I had to read for my English class)
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,004
Likes: 1
From: North of Boston MA
Also, as to the "couple days" to start a plant, that is also not true. There is a large power plant in the city I grew up in. According to the guy who ran the plant for 30 years (my father), they would begin light off from cold iron on the 3PM to 11PM shift and be at full power by the next morning, less than 16 hours. This was for the three, 125 MegaWatt boilers. The 500MW boiler took an extra couple hours.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,512
Likes: 8
From: Cook Forest and Irwin PA
Even at 16 hours thats a heckuva blackout time. But I stand what my friend told me - he is an engineer that builds plants for First Energy all over the US - Nuke, coal gas figure 2 days. you list 16 hours, 2 days is 24, and with the regulations today...
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,004
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From: North of Boston MA
With the commercially available weather products that are available (and I'm not talking about the local weather report) utilties have a pretty good idea what the weather is going to do - at least the weather parameters that matter to them such as temperature, wind velocity and cloud cover.
Regulations, as you mentioned, are not really a factor in starting up a plant. Yeah, the permitting time is long but once a plant is built, licensed and operational, they start and stop plants as needed.
Last time I checked, 24 hours was one day but maybe things are counted differently where you are.....
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,938
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From: BC Canada
Actually two days is equal to 48 hours.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,512
Likes: 8
From: Cook Forest and Irwin PA
um yeah....damn calculator. ;-)
anyways, did anyone follow that link and see what the wind power payback REALLY is in europe? I think that data should be a model for what to expect here, expecially given the expected hours/days of operation. What is the real efficiency rate? 25%? thats a hell of a boondoggle.
(and this brings up another political point: hydropower - which aint a bad idea, but is insufficient for all generation, fell into disfavor once the sierra club found that some dumb-azz fish was not able to have nookie, now the largest installation - the columbia river basin - is being systematically dismantled, with political pressure on the colorado system to dismantle.
Once they discover that some dumb-azz bird gets chopped up - now what - google up tehachapi CA wind power and bird populations - they are already starting there.
Now I need someone to segue to the next obvious problem...which is also the biggest
anyways, did anyone follow that link and see what the wind power payback REALLY is in europe? I think that data should be a model for what to expect here, expecially given the expected hours/days of operation. What is the real efficiency rate? 25%? thats a hell of a boondoggle.
(and this brings up another political point: hydropower - which aint a bad idea, but is insufficient for all generation, fell into disfavor once the sierra club found that some dumb-azz fish was not able to have nookie, now the largest installation - the columbia river basin - is being systematically dismantled, with political pressure on the colorado system to dismantle.
Once they discover that some dumb-azz bird gets chopped up - now what - google up tehachapi CA wind power and bird populations - they are already starting there.
Now I need someone to segue to the next obvious problem...which is also the biggest
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Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,512
Likes: 8
From: Cook Forest and Irwin PA
They aint? It takes a week (or more) to restart a cold nuke due to the interim step approval process - each step has a mandatory checkpoint and NRC approval step to do the next part. Process - is good, but this process was put in the way to purposefully drive up cost.
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,628
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From: Calgary, Canada
I guess your engineer friend never heard of hydro, eh?
hydro plants can be started up and begin generating electricity in only a matter of minutes.