Ford rethinking diesel f-150
#31
11-29-2008, 10:25 PM
My 2 cents worth, and this gets back to the target market, is that I would absolutely love to have a 1/2 ton with a diesel. Especially a small one that gets good mileage. It has been done for years, as has been noted already (especially over in Europe), so why can't it be done now? Ford has the ball rolling (er, did have the ball rolling). I think they just screwed up halting the development of this 4.4.
I could see a lot of people going for the diesel 1/2 tons. If VW had more, and more competitively priced, diesel cars I think those would also sell despite the fuel costs. Then again, if gassers start getting 30-40mpg (which I don't think is possible yet in a truck that's made to WORK) you can kiss that theory byebye.
Myself, personally, I would love to have a 1/2 ton diesel as a daily driver. Because of the small engine I don't think the towing capacity will be much better, if any, than the current offerings in the 1/2 ton world so chances are I would need a full size anyway. We'll see what happens in the coming years.
Maybe once this thing actually comes out I can afford to have a 1 ton for pulling and a 1/2 ton DD so Im not sucking fuel in a normal day (albiet, not that bad in the grand scheme of things today).
Steve
I could see a lot of people going for the diesel 1/2 tons. If VW had more, and more competitively priced, diesel cars I think those would also sell despite the fuel costs. Then again, if gassers start getting 30-40mpg (which I don't think is possible yet in a truck that's made to WORK) you can kiss that theory byebye.
Myself, personally, I would love to have a 1/2 ton diesel as a daily driver. Because of the small engine I don't think the towing capacity will be much better, if any, than the current offerings in the 1/2 ton world so chances are I would need a full size anyway. We'll see what happens in the coming years.
Maybe once this thing actually comes out I can afford to have a 1 ton for pulling and a 1/2 ton DD so Im not sucking fuel in a normal day (albiet, not that bad in the grand scheme of things today).
Steve
#33
12-07-2008, 10:26 AM
#34
12-07-2008, 11:14 AM
I believe the technology is there to do it. It will be harder to do, but I think that the level of technology that is here now is able to produce a fuel efficient diesel that complies with the EPA regulations. It won't be cheap and it won't be as easy. I think that is the main reason the big auto giants are crawling around. If they would just get off their high-horse and really put some effort in this I think it can happen.
But then again, with the economy the way it is, I don't think anyone is going to be too concerned about anything other than keeping their business alive and not putting a gazillion people out of work...
Steve
#35
12-09-2008, 02:16 PM
Business owner here for the last 29 years, been in construction for my entire adult life.
We have had nothing but Ford trucks in our company fleet, typically running a half dozen pickups of different years and engine sizes, oldest is a 1985 F250, newest is a 2005 F250.
Some of my truck observations over the years:
1. LOADED diesel V8 pickup trucks are cheaper to run than the gas trucks despite fuel pricing. Unloaded, not so different cost per mile, but load up the bed with tools and hardware, and the diesels hardly notice the load, whereas the gas engines drop mpg noticeably. Our foremen typically run their trucks 2 hours each way back & forth to work sites, the trucks might sit and idle there for much of the day.
2. We do not run any of the new "clean" diesels yet -- that said, the diesel trucks we have run seemed to hold up somewhat better in our tough work environment. We use our trucks hard, often in dirty environments. The F150s and 250 gas trucks all start to look and act "used up" around 150k to 175k. The diesel trucks routinely go over 250k before cost/benefit analysis tells us to trade them out.
3. We also run big trucks - Advance concrete mixer transit trucks, Mack semis, also keep an older Ford F850 single axle dump with a 460! The diesels last forever with proper maintenance.
4. We don't tow large/heavy trailers, we only load up the beds with heavy stuff. If Ford made an F150 (or even a Ranger) with a big I4 or midsize V6 turbodiesel, the contruction companies like ours would snap them up. I've written to Ford many times over the years asking them for a baby Powerstroke F150, but to no avail, they don't ever write back, and obviously do not heed my advice. But what do I know, I'm just a business owner whose employees have worn out a couple dozen Ford trucks in the last 29 years....
We have had nothing but Ford trucks in our company fleet, typically running a half dozen pickups of different years and engine sizes, oldest is a 1985 F250, newest is a 2005 F250.
Some of my truck observations over the years:
1. LOADED diesel V8 pickup trucks are cheaper to run than the gas trucks despite fuel pricing. Unloaded, not so different cost per mile, but load up the bed with tools and hardware, and the diesels hardly notice the load, whereas the gas engines drop mpg noticeably. Our foremen typically run their trucks 2 hours each way back & forth to work sites, the trucks might sit and idle there for much of the day.
2. We do not run any of the new "clean" diesels yet -- that said, the diesel trucks we have run seemed to hold up somewhat better in our tough work environment. We use our trucks hard, often in dirty environments. The F150s and 250 gas trucks all start to look and act "used up" around 150k to 175k. The diesel trucks routinely go over 250k before cost/benefit analysis tells us to trade them out.
3. We also run big trucks - Advance concrete mixer transit trucks, Mack semis, also keep an older Ford F850 single axle dump with a 460! The diesels last forever with proper maintenance.
4. We don't tow large/heavy trailers, we only load up the beds with heavy stuff. If Ford made an F150 (or even a Ranger) with a big I4 or midsize V6 turbodiesel, the contruction companies like ours would snap them up. I've written to Ford many times over the years asking them for a baby Powerstroke F150, but to no avail, they don't ever write back, and obviously do not heed my advice. But what do I know, I'm just a business owner whose employees have worn out a couple dozen Ford trucks in the last 29 years....
#36
12-10-2008, 11:39 AM
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Business owner here for the last 29 years, been in construction for my entire adult life.
We have had nothing but Ford trucks in our company fleet, typically running a half dozen pickups of different years and engine sizes, oldest is a 1985 F250, newest is a 2005 F250.
Some of my truck observations over the years:
1. LOADED diesel V8 pickup trucks are cheaper to run than the gas trucks despite fuel pricing. Unloaded, not so different cost per mile, but load up the bed with tools and hardware, and the diesels hardly notice the load, whereas the gas engines drop mpg noticeably. Our foremen typically run their trucks 2 hours each way back & forth to work sites, the trucks might sit and idle there for much of the day.
2. We do not run any of the new "clean" diesels yet -- that said, the diesel trucks we have run seemed to hold up somewhat better in our tough work environment. We use our trucks hard, often in dirty environments. The F150s and 250 gas trucks all start to look and act "used up" around 150k to 175k. The diesel trucks routinely go over 250k before cost/benefit analysis tells us to trade them out.
3. We also run big trucks - Advance concrete mixer transit trucks, Mack semis, also keep an older Ford F850 single axle dump with a 460! The diesels last forever with proper maintenance.
4. We don't tow large/heavy trailers, we only load up the beds with heavy stuff. If Ford made an F150 (or even a Ranger) with a big I4 or midsize V6 turbodiesel, the contruction companies like ours would snap them up. I've written to Ford many times over the years asking them for a baby Powerstroke F150, but to no avail, they don't ever write back, and obviously do not heed my advice. But what do I know, I'm just a business owner whose employees have worn out a couple dozen Ford trucks in the last 29 years....
We have had nothing but Ford trucks in our company fleet, typically running a half dozen pickups of different years and engine sizes, oldest is a 1985 F250, newest is a 2005 F250.
Some of my truck observations over the years:
1. LOADED diesel V8 pickup trucks are cheaper to run than the gas trucks despite fuel pricing. Unloaded, not so different cost per mile, but load up the bed with tools and hardware, and the diesels hardly notice the load, whereas the gas engines drop mpg noticeably. Our foremen typically run their trucks 2 hours each way back & forth to work sites, the trucks might sit and idle there for much of the day.
2. We do not run any of the new "clean" diesels yet -- that said, the diesel trucks we have run seemed to hold up somewhat better in our tough work environment. We use our trucks hard, often in dirty environments. The F150s and 250 gas trucks all start to look and act "used up" around 150k to 175k. The diesel trucks routinely go over 250k before cost/benefit analysis tells us to trade them out.
3. We also run big trucks - Advance concrete mixer transit trucks, Mack semis, also keep an older Ford F850 single axle dump with a 460! The diesels last forever with proper maintenance.
4. We don't tow large/heavy trailers, we only load up the beds with heavy stuff. If Ford made an F150 (or even a Ranger) with a big I4 or midsize V6 turbodiesel, the contruction companies like ours would snap them up. I've written to Ford many times over the years asking them for a baby Powerstroke F150, but to no avail, they don't ever write back, and obviously do not heed my advice. But what do I know, I'm just a business owner whose employees have worn out a couple dozen Ford trucks in the last 29 years....
#37
12-14-2008, 11:12 PM
A half ton is not a 3/4 or one ton truck and the difference between a half ton diesel should be compared to a half ton gasser. The motor might outlast the gas motor but with the higher cost of running a diesel in the current environment I don't think any of the manufacturers would risk it. They can't afford to bring to market a loser.
When I bought my Dodge in 1999 I researched and found that diesel had for the previous 10 years had sold for around 10 cents cheaper than gasoline. I subsequently bought a VW in 2003 and its a stingy car with upper 40's average mileage with alot of in town driving.
However somewhere in 2004 or so diesel has consistently been priced higher than gas. Around 15 percent higher when you average the different disparities. Now when this high prices of fuel went up in the last year both gas and diesel went up. Now that gas has dropped and its gotten back around 1.50, diesel is priced around 60 percent higher than gasoline! Unless the prices go back much closer to gas, half ton diesels would have to get in the lower 30's somewhere for them to compete directly with gas.
While some people would love to have a half ton diesel, most would balk at the current fuel prices. The only thing I have come up with for the larger disparity in prices is that possibly diesel use has not gone down like gasoline has.
In Europe where diesel cars are approaching half of the vehicles driven the government has made diesel a national priority and made the cost of it advantageous by lowering or eliminating taxes on diesel so it could compete or beat gasoline. I haven't looked at their prices in the last year so I don't know what this last round of oil prices have done there.
By the way VW is now selling their 2009 Jetta's and they are pretty good on fuel. A little less mpg than my 2003 but much better than most gassers in their size.
When I bought my Dodge in 1999 I researched and found that diesel had for the previous 10 years had sold for around 10 cents cheaper than gasoline. I subsequently bought a VW in 2003 and its a stingy car with upper 40's average mileage with alot of in town driving.
However somewhere in 2004 or so diesel has consistently been priced higher than gas. Around 15 percent higher when you average the different disparities. Now when this high prices of fuel went up in the last year both gas and diesel went up. Now that gas has dropped and its gotten back around 1.50, diesel is priced around 60 percent higher than gasoline! Unless the prices go back much closer to gas, half ton diesels would have to get in the lower 30's somewhere for them to compete directly with gas.
While some people would love to have a half ton diesel, most would balk at the current fuel prices. The only thing I have come up with for the larger disparity in prices is that possibly diesel use has not gone down like gasoline has.
In Europe where diesel cars are approaching half of the vehicles driven the government has made diesel a national priority and made the cost of it advantageous by lowering or eliminating taxes on diesel so it could compete or beat gasoline. I haven't looked at their prices in the last year so I don't know what this last round of oil prices have done there.
By the way VW is now selling their 2009 Jetta's and they are pretty good on fuel. A little less mpg than my 2003 but much better than most gassers in their size.
#38
12-25-2008, 11:12 PM
Any idea why this is so?
A half ton is not a 3/4 or one ton truck and the difference between a half ton diesel should be compared to a half ton gasser. The motor might outlast the gas motor but with the higher cost of running a diesel in the current environment I don't think any of the manufacturers would risk it. They can't afford to bring to market a loser.
When I bought my Dodge in 1999 I researched and found that diesel had for the previous 10 years had sold for around 10 cents cheaper than gasoline. I subsequently bought a VW in 2003 and its a stingy car with upper 40's average mileage with alot of in town driving.
However somewhere in 2004 or so diesel has consistently been priced higher than gas. Around 15 percent higher when you average the different disparities. Now when this high prices of fuel went up in the last year both gas and diesel went up. Now that gas has dropped and its gotten back around 1.50, diesel is priced around 60 percent higher than gasoline! Unless the prices go back much closer to gas, half ton diesels would have to get in the lower 30's somewhere for them to compete directly with gas.
While some people would love to have a half ton diesel, most would balk at the current fuel prices. The only thing I have come up with for the larger disparity in prices is that possibly diesel use has not gone down like gasoline has.
In Europe where diesel cars are approaching half of the vehicles driven the government has made diesel a national priority and made the cost of it advantageous by lowering or eliminating taxes on diesel so it could compete or beat gasoline. I haven't looked at their prices in the last year so I don't know what this last round of oil prices have done there.
By the way VW is now selling their 2009 Jetta's and they are pretty good on fuel. A little less mpg than my 2003 but much better than most gassers in their size.
When I bought my Dodge in 1999 I researched and found that diesel had for the previous 10 years had sold for around 10 cents cheaper than gasoline. I subsequently bought a VW in 2003 and its a stingy car with upper 40's average mileage with alot of in town driving.
However somewhere in 2004 or so diesel has consistently been priced higher than gas. Around 15 percent higher when you average the different disparities. Now when this high prices of fuel went up in the last year both gas and diesel went up. Now that gas has dropped and its gotten back around 1.50, diesel is priced around 60 percent higher than gasoline! Unless the prices go back much closer to gas, half ton diesels would have to get in the lower 30's somewhere for them to compete directly with gas.
While some people would love to have a half ton diesel, most would balk at the current fuel prices. The only thing I have come up with for the larger disparity in prices is that possibly diesel use has not gone down like gasoline has.
In Europe where diesel cars are approaching half of the vehicles driven the government has made diesel a national priority and made the cost of it advantageous by lowering or eliminating taxes on diesel so it could compete or beat gasoline. I haven't looked at their prices in the last year so I don't know what this last round of oil prices have done there.
By the way VW is now selling their 2009 Jetta's and they are pretty good on fuel. A little less mpg than my 2003 but much better than most gassers in their size.
I am wondering why Europe is so obviously diesel heavy and the US is not. Diesel can be very clean (the EU has at least as strict emissions standards as the US) I am starting to think that in a free market someone would have at least given this a shot, so while it may be a "conspiracy theory", I am left scratching my head why there is not a plan to even pilot this. Diesel is roughly 30% more efficient, so it could be worth it. I hear that Tata motors is planning on it, so yet again the Big 3 are going to be late to the party.
VW has a rabbit sold today in the EU that is diesel and get 75 mpg, and has a 10% smaller carbon footprint than a Prius. It is total BS that the US is in love with hybrids....the US would be in love with something that works, and diesel technology is proven. The only option we are given now is hybrid, since diesel is being restricted from our market.
Sorry, don't mean to rant too much, but me thinks there is something more behind the reason why Ford won't import the Fiesta (diesel, with 65mpg), and I think it has to do with the US market having to support the R and D to develop hybrid technology.
#39
12-26-2008, 04:04 AM
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#41
12-26-2008, 09:11 AM
The only reason to buy from the dealer, at this point, is due to the lack of a distribution infrastructure. Come 2010, this infrastructure will be in place and DEF will be available nearly everwhere.
What did you mean by "add it to every tank"? DEF is used at a rate of 2-4% of fuel burned. Therefore, it isn't necessary to fill the DEF tank each time you fuel the vehicle. Most passenger vehicle DEF tanks are sized to allow the distance between oil changes to elapse before tank filling is needed.
#43
12-26-2008, 11:12 AM
#44
01-13-2009, 06:16 PM
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I agree with bikepharmer, it seems we as a country are in love with only hybrids. I have owned ford trucks for more than 15 years, they have always been my favorite but now I am reduced to driving VW's because their one of the very few to offer a diesel in a smaller vehicle or truck. My jetta normally gets 49-52 mpg and my rabbit truck gets 50mpg day in and out. If ford would get on the stick and build a I4 turbo diesel ranger I would be in line with cash. But O wait, only europe gets those, we have a better plan , stick a bunch of batteries in a car to improve [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']gas [/FONT]mileage to a realistic 10 or so [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']less[/FONT] mpg than the same car with a diesel would get!!!!!!! Geez I can see my ford stock will continue it's trend (down) I think whoever get's a halfton diesel on the market is going to sell a bunch of them provided they doesn’t want some ridiculous premium for the engine upgrade. I am thinking a Jap manufacture will beat the big three to it at this point. For goodness sakes if we must haul around a truckload of batteries why not do it with a diesel.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
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#45
01-14-2009, 12:01 PM
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I agree with bikepharmer, it seems we as a country are in love with only hybrids. I have owned ford trucks for more than 15 years, they have always been my favorite but now I am reduced to driving VW's because their one of the very few to offer a diesel in a smaller vehicle or truck. My jetta normally gets 49-52 mpg and my rabbit truck gets 50mpg day in and out. If ford would get on the stick and build a I4 turbo diesel ranger I would be in line with cash. But O wait, only europe gets those, we have a better plan , stick a bunch of batteries in a car to improve [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']gas [/font]mileage to a realistic 10 or so [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']less[/font] mpg than the same car with a diesel would get!!!!!!! Geez I can see my ford stock will continue it's trend (down) I think whoever get's a halfton diesel on the market is going to sell a bunch of them provided they doesn’t want some ridiculous premium for the engine upgrade. I am thinking a Jap manufacture will beat the big three to it at this point. For goodness sakes if we must haul around a truckload of batteries why not do it with a diesel.fficeffice" /><O></O>
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Stepping off my soapbox now, Dave<O></O>
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></O>yes the 3.0l i4 diesel Ranger goes lovely and averages 7L per 100km which i think is around 33mpg if my maths and conversions dont let me down.