Do our trucks learn, or not??
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 11,892
Likes: 2
From: Middle Tennessee
Now I highly doubt this. I have not seen gravity either. I think what we have to define here is what we will call "adaptive" and "learning".
To respond to the gauge wh**e, by your definition, no vehicle will adapt. They all will have some sort of look up table values for any sensor and a left and right limit. If not, they could learn their way to 10,000HP or blow themselves up.
I will grant that the more modern systems have looser, more robust systems, but still parameters. Your basic if-then.
So are we saying that the 7.3 has one table that is fairly rigid? After all, if there is no adjusting, then there is no need for an algorithm.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,600
Likes: 3
From: Carhenge
Hmmm. Come to think of it, I have not either. I guess Jody has no idea what he is talking about since I have not seen it.
Now I highly doubt this. I have not seen gravity either. I think what we have to define here is what we will call "adaptive" and "learning".
To respond to the gauge wh**e, by your definition, no vehicle will adapt. They all will have some sort of look up table values for any sensor and a left and right limit. If not, they could learn their way to 10,000HP or blow themselves up.
I will grant that the more modern systems have looser, more robust systems, but still parameters. Your basic if-then.
So are we saying that the 7.3 has one table that is fairly rigid? After all, if there is no adjusting, then there is no need for an algorithm.
Now I highly doubt this. I have not seen gravity either. I think what we have to define here is what we will call "adaptive" and "learning".
To respond to the gauge wh**e, by your definition, no vehicle will adapt. They all will have some sort of look up table values for any sensor and a left and right limit. If not, they could learn their way to 10,000HP or blow themselves up.
I will grant that the more modern systems have looser, more robust systems, but still parameters. Your basic if-then.
So are we saying that the 7.3 has one table that is fairly rigid? After all, if there is no adjusting, then there is no need for an algorithm.
The thing that people seem to be have trouble understanding is that using an algorithm or if-then is not learning. The adaptive strategy pcms store data read from the sensors for a given set of conditions, and use that data to make a "decision" the next time. Our pcm's use the data from the various sensors to look at rigid data stored in the pcm or on a chip, and make a "decision". They don't ever look at "what happened last time" and adjust their "decision" accordingly. For a given set of parameters (input from the sensors), the same thing happens every time, which is coincidentally just how gravity works.
By the way, I'm not saying anything about Jody's knowledge, but I suspect his statement might be misunderstood. Jody has an account here, perhaps he can be enticed to weigh in and speak for himself?
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,584
Likes: 0
From: Millbrook Alabama
They don't ever look at "what happened last time" and adjust their "decision" accordingly. For a given set of parameters (input from the sensors), the same thing happens every time,
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 11,892
Likes: 2
From: Middle Tennessee
I don't know what incited the hostility, I'm just weighing in on the subject, Tenn. What I meant to say is that I have read and heard that our pcm's are not adaptive from sources that I respect just as much as you obviously respect Jody. Did not mean to go on the attack. Sorry clux.
The thing that people seem to be have trouble understanding is that using an algorithm or if-then is not learning. The adaptive strategy pcms store data read from the sensors for a given set of conditions, and use that data to make a "decision" the next time. Our pcm's use the data from the various sensors to look at rigid data stored in the pcm or on a chip, and make a "decision". They don't ever look at "what happened last time" and adjust their "decision" accordingly. This applies to all vehicles, it is still an algorithm. It can remember all it wants but still has to operate within parameters no matter what.For a given set of parameters (input from the sensors), the same thing happens every time, which is coincidentally just how gravity works. We will leave gravity out for now because I have a beef with it.
By the way, I'm not saying anything about Jody's knowledge, but I suspect his statement might be misunderstood. Jody has an account here, perhaps he can be enticed to weigh in and speak for himself?
Did not mean to go on the attack. Sorry clux.The thing that people seem to be have trouble understanding is that using an algorithm or if-then is not learning. The adaptive strategy pcms store data read from the sensors for a given set of conditions, and use that data to make a "decision" the next time. Our pcm's use the data from the various sensors to look at rigid data stored in the pcm or on a chip, and make a "decision". They don't ever look at "what happened last time" and adjust their "decision" accordingly. This applies to all vehicles, it is still an algorithm. It can remember all it wants but still has to operate within parameters no matter what.For a given set of parameters (input from the sensors), the same thing happens every time, which is coincidentally just how gravity works. We will leave gravity out for now because I have a beef with it.
By the way, I'm not saying anything about Jody's knowledge, but I suspect his statement might be misunderstood. Jody has an account here, perhaps he can be enticed to weigh in and speak for himself?
I suppose what is in question is the extent of learning, and how we will define it. I don't think we will ever get the full answer here as that is an industry secret still, to this day.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,600
Likes: 3
From: Carhenge
I dont believe this is correct either.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,600
Likes: 3
From: Carhenge
Nope, not the transmission either. The 5r110 does however, and that's why there is a relearn procedure for it if the batteries are disconnected:
Torqushift Shift Relearning Strategy
TorqShift Harsh/Slipping Engagements, Upshifts, and/or Downshifts:
If these symptoms are experienced after the batteries have been disconnected, then it is due to the transmission adaptive strategy being cleared from the computer. This may occur when the vehicle is delivered new from the factory as well.
1. Warm the engine and transmission to operating temperature with all accessories off.
2. Idle engine for one minute with engine warm and all accessories off.
3. Idle engine for one minute with A/C on.
Then:
1. While driving, perform three series of upshifts at light, medium and heavy throttle.
2. While stopped, perform three sets of gear engagements (N-R, N-D, D-R, R-D) with the brake pedal firmly depressed and waiting three seconds between each engagement.
Perform these steps once in normal mode and once in tow/haul.
Torqushift Shift Relearning Strategy
TorqShift Harsh/Slipping Engagements, Upshifts, and/or Downshifts:
If these symptoms are experienced after the batteries have been disconnected, then it is due to the transmission adaptive strategy being cleared from the computer. This may occur when the vehicle is delivered new from the factory as well.
1. Warm the engine and transmission to operating temperature with all accessories off.
2. Idle engine for one minute with engine warm and all accessories off.
3. Idle engine for one minute with A/C on.
Then:
1. While driving, perform three series of upshifts at light, medium and heavy throttle.
2. While stopped, perform three sets of gear engagements (N-R, N-D, D-R, R-D) with the brake pedal firmly depressed and waiting three seconds between each engagement.
Perform these steps once in normal mode and once in tow/haul.
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Fleet Owner
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 25,090
Likes: 1,112
From: Rio Rico, AZ.
what do you call modifing the LT & ST fuel trims? Mine didn't get to -38 after a reset all by itself.
When my brother drives it for a week, the LTFT goes back to about +10 or so then my mileage stinks for about a month. When my wife drives it, LTFT goes to -15.
How else does Limp mode function? the PCM HAS to know that some sensors have failed and modifies what it can to keep running, if possible
There may not be LOTS of adaptive learning, but it has more than a calculator
When my brother drives it for a week, the LTFT goes back to about +10 or so then my mileage stinks for about a month. When my wife drives it, LTFT goes to -15.
How else does Limp mode function? the PCM HAS to know that some sensors have failed and modifies what it can to keep running, if possible
There may not be LOTS of adaptive learning, but it has more than a calculator
That sort of programming is for a gas engine where fuel ratios must be maintained at 14.7:1.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 851
Likes: 0
From: N. Georgia
I dont believe this is correct either.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Joe
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,993
Likes: 2
From: Bend, OR
I dont believe this is correct either.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Your seat of the pants meter is whats telling you your truck is running stronger, otherwise everyone would pull a trailer to the dyno...
Come on people, there is a differance from a response then looking back atpast history and changing something "because this happened last time"
The 7.3 DOES NOT have any ablity to look back at past experances or issues. It is a here and now type of computer.
The 7.3 has NO adaptive stradigy.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,135
Likes: 0
From: Brinklow Md
I dont believe this is correct either.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Challenge: Hook up to a large load and take a 100 mile trip. shut off truck unhook trailer, and go for a drive. Your truck will run stronger for the first few miles until it has had a chance resample all sensors and adjust to the load(or lack of) Now this may not be "learning", but it is storing and utilizing information from the previous run session.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,724
Likes: 74
From: Blue Hill Township
Ive never had this happen, might "feel" stronger because you were pulling a load and the truck would acclerate slower than without the load so when you take the load off you think or "feel" it taking off faster when really you were just used to the load being there and the truck was accelerating slower because of that. Just my .02 cents, If it even makes sense.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 11,892
Likes: 2
From: Middle Tennessee
We have beaten this horse before here. There is no need to abuse trigger any further. Minds are made up, and nothing will change that.
Without proof this is all hot air and argument. Therefore we should let this go.
So, Joe the TN N** Swinger is wrong.
Without proof this is all hot air and argument. Therefore we should let this go.
So, Joe the TN N** Swinger is wrong.
Thread Starter
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Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,499
Likes: 10
From: Sterling Heights,Mi
Ok, sorry for beating the horse...SO what about that 6637.. Truthfully thought, it was not intention to drag this throught he mud.. it was strictly brought on my driving expereince, and th e action I had taken just before leaving... Thanks all for your responses..